Who Mediates?

by Englishman 37 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Beans

  Let us pray!
  Dear Jehovah God, through the name of your son and reigning king,
  Christ Jesus, we humbly come before you in prayer, and ask that our
  humble brother Beans be given only the finest Barley and Malted Hops
  beverages that you have provided for us, and thank you for the loving
  provision of inebriation which has been demonstrated so fully by Sister
  XXX, who has massive cans and can drink more than most
  sailors. And so Jehovah, as your humble and loyally united servants,we
  leave this day and in your care and keeping, so that the Ale can bear
  full witness to the heavenly establishment of your kingdom, and we look
  forward to the day when the earth will be restored, according to your
  will, as the eternal Oktoberfest that you had originally intended for
  Mankind, complete with serving wenches who know their proper place below
  men, and a bounteous harvest of Wine and Spirits which will come in
  handy to settle our nerves when we see those formerly dead people start
  crawling out of their graves, just like in that Thriller Video. And all
  these things we ask, through the name of your son and our King-of-Beers,
  *AMEN*"
  http://www.Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com

  Bro.Beans
• 

  Earnest

  Sorry, guys, but I just don't see the prob. This is just semantics, playing with words. If you use the expression 'go-between' instead of 'mediator' then everyone agrees he does that for all.

  It's only because Timothy uses it in a different (legal) sense to that normally understood that WTS says it only applies to those in the covenant. As the QFR of 8/15/89 stated

  Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using “mediator” in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, “attorney”) of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice: “He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.”

  Those of ‘the whole world’ are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. They view Jesus as their High Priest and King through whom they can daily gain approach to Jehovah. They rely on Jesus’ ransom, which is available to them, just as it will be to men such as Abraham, David, and John the Baptizer when these are resurrected. (Matthew 20:28) Thus, Christ’s sacrifice will lead to everlasting life for all obedient mankind.

  However, I agree that the WTS has propagated the confusion that exists. I remember immediately after the 11/15/79 QFR everyone stopped using the word "mediator" in their prayers. It just vanished. And there has been unnecessary emphasis on the legal mediatorship applying only to those in the kingdom covenant. But at the same time I do think that critics have twisted this to say that Jesus is not mediator (in the general, non-legal, common sense of the word) of those outside the kingdom covenant.

  Earnest
• 

  ozziepost

  Come off it, Earnest! That's just Watchtower apologist cobblers!

  Notice that I included a quote at the very top of my list of quotes that I'll repeat here:

  Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life. The Watchtower June 15, 1974 page 376 Serve with Eternity in View

  You can claim semantics till you're blue in the face but you can't go past the WTS clearly teaching that it's the F&DS who're the mediator ["go-between"] for the Great Crowd. How many times have you come across statements in The Watchtower claiming that the WTS is God's channel? If that's not a mediator/go-between, what is?

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  Earnest

  Hi Ozzie,

  I did note your quote that "most of the Christian Greek Scriptures, including the promises of everlasting life", are directed to spirit-anointed Christians. But three paragraphs further the same article says:

  This hope of everlasting life, however, is not limited to those who are part of the heavenly kingdom. Not at all. In speaking about this time or the generation seeing the establishment of the Kingdom, Jesus definitely promised everlasting earthly life. This is the time for separating the “sheep” from the “goats.” (Matt. 25:31-33) And what reward did Jesus hold out for the “sheep” who help and serve with his anointed “brothers” but who are not themselves such “brothers” of Christ who have heavenly life in view? He promised that these righteous ones will enter into “everlasting life,” yes, life right here on earth. (Matt. 25:46)

  I do not want to suggest that I have no problems with appropriating the entire New Testament for about 8000 people on earth. Otherwise I wouldn't be here, would I. But I do find the argument that "mediator" in 1 Timothy 2 is used in a legal sense to be convincing. It hasn't altered my belief in Jesus as my mediator in every other sense and I don't see why that should change for others.

  Having reviewed your previous post I note that the QFR of 15/8/89 does say:

  Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate?

  It then goes on to deal with the legal sense of the word "mediator". That seems to demolish my argument. Yet it goes on to say:

  The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.—Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.

  It sometimes seems that they deliberately obfuscate what they are teaching and are clearly responsible for the confusion. Their critics exacerbate this by mixing the legal sense of "mediator" with the common sense of the word.

  A plague on both your houses.

  Earnest
• 

  Matty

  It always amuses me that God should be so petty as to ignore any heartfelt entreaty toward him unless something resembling "through Jesus Christ" is mentioned at some time during the prayer, but as we all know this is the teaching that is drummed into us from birth!
• 

  Will Power

  Why does the WT insist on making up their own stories:

  , Jesus definitely promised everlasting earthly life.

  He promised that these righteous ones will enter into “everlasting life,” yes, life right here on earth. (Matt. 25:46)

  the actual Matt 25:46 says nothing about eternal life on earth
  YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD WORDS TO THE BIBLE TO GET THAT which is exactly what they do Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The purpose of Matt 25:31-46 will be to determine who will be allowed to enter the eternal kingdom of the saved and who will be consigned to eternal punishment (eternal fire-hell metaphor)
  vs 34-40 Rewards in the kingdom of heaven are given to those who serve(not door to door) without thought of reward. There is no hint of merit here, for God gives out grace, NOT DEBT.

  Earnest, relying on the WT for your bible knowledge gives you hope in something made up. Try reading the whole chapter when they cite a vs. You will quickly see how much they add & take away.

  and

  All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24)
  Again the words "gain life on earth" are nowhere to be found.
  The WT has added this idea here on their own.

  And who is it that will answer these prayers? vs 13, Whatever you ask in MY name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son 14 If you ask Me anything in My name I will do it.

  This is prayer that he himself will answer!
  Should you pray to an angel? Or is this one of the passages reserved for the annointed, meaning they can pray to an angel
  (albeit an important one)
  The WT is telling you, you can go thru Jesus for prayer, even tho He is not your legal mediator yet do not mention that he also says if you pray to Him He will do it!

  Luckily a Jehovah's Witness has the WT as his legal representative and their covenant (dedication) is with the organization.

  Earnest, you shouldn't wish bad on anyone, shame on you.
• 

  Earnest

  Will Power,

  The quotation to which you allude was part of the original article that Ozzie referred to. I simply mentioned it in order to show that after saying that "promises of everlasting life [in the Christian Greek Scriptures] are directed to spirit-anointed Christians" it also said that "Jesus definitely promised everlasting earthly life".

  Whether or not you think Jesus did promise earthly life is neither here nor there. I was not trying to establish that. I was just saying that the view that "most of the Christian Greek Scriptures are directed to spirit-anointed Christians" was qualified by many references to the other sheep.

  If you really think everyone goes to heaven where do you think Adam expected to go (a) before he sinned (b) after he sinned. And why do you so answer? Where do you think Eve (who was deceived) expected to go after she sinned, and why do you so answer? Finally, where do you think they went...and why do you so answer.

  Earnest
• 

  Will Power

  " it also said that "Jesus definitely promised everlasting earthly life".

  But where? Where does Jesus promise everlasting earthly life outside of the WT literature? Scripture?

  I was just saying that the view that "most of the Christian Greek Scriptures are directed to spirit-anointed Christians" was qualified by many references to the other sheep.

  AND WHOSE VIEW is that bible is for annointed only? The word [other] curious huh? In the 7 instances in the NewT where I have found the word sheep, not once is the word "other" there.
  Were these words not spoken to the apostles and other followers before they were annointed at pentecost? And Many of the Jews that Jesus spoke to did not believe!

  Are you a Jew or a Gentile? If you are a Gentile (non Jew) then you are of the other sheep spoken of who Paul preached to to make One Flock, one shepherd, one hope, one lord.
  John 10:26-28 Jesus' words: "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. MY sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow ME; and i give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of MY hand.

  He was speaking to Jews-his sheep-but they were unbelievers so-not his sheep. Believers hear his voice, not just "annointed". And again no mention of eternal life ON EARTH!!

  I am pointing out the fact that you cite WT for reasons Jesus is/is not your mediator, just is in a sense, and the living forever on earth is stuck in there, you think you are learning one thing but they are re-inforcing another fallacy at the same time. This is how they work all their ideas that draw you away from Jesus-the gospel of the bible & replace the Society as your "mediator/lawyer representative" telling you that you are not good enough for the real thing.

  Humbug, you deserve every word Jesus spoke to his UNannointed followers.
• 

  Will Power

  p.s. Earnest

  I am not preaching, I am only pointing out how the WT deceives & manipulates. They say things that are not of the bible. Claim "special" connection to God for their info. But also say they are just men when new light comes out to change their view. Dates, generation, scream when raped, men of old alive in 1925, YOU with live forever on earth, YOU cannot come to Jesus in prayer, YOU are not in ANY covenant with GOD, your's is with the Society - they are promising you immortality. If you must believe in a book such as the bible, read it without the words added to and taken away by the WT. You'll be amazed. NOT STUMBLED in spirit, but strengthened.

  (those jokes about lawyers? - They're half true teehee)
• 

  ozziepost

  Earnest,

  Reading thru your reply I am struck by your graciousness and so I simply respond with friendship.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress