Who Mediates?

by Englishman 37 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Earnest

  Will Power,

  You said:

  Where does Jesus promise everlasting earthly life outside of the WT literature?

  As the context of the discussion is what the WTS teaches it is irrelevant whether it is outside of the WT literature.

  AND WHOSE VIEW is that bible is for annointed only?

  As the context of the discussion is what the WTS teaches this is obviously the WT view.

  In the 7 instances in the NewT where I have found the word sheep, not once is the word "other" there.

  The word "sheep" occurs 40 times in the NewT. Try John 10:16 for "other sheep". The Greek word translated "other" is allos and is similarly translated at John 4:38; 6:22,23; 7:12, 41a; 9:9b,16; 10:21; 12:29; 15:24; 18:16,34; 19:18,32; 20:2,3,4,8,25,30; 21:2,8,25 as well as 58 other occurrences in the NT.

  Are you a Jew or a Gentile?

  I am a Gentile.

  Now that I have answered your questions perhaps you would like to answer mine:

  If you really think everyone goes to heaven where do you think Adam expected to go (a) before he sinned (b) after he sinned. And why do you so answer? Where do you think Eve (who was deceived) expected to go after she sinned, and why do you so answer? Finally, where do you think they went...and why do you so answer.

  Ozzie

  Earnest
• 

  dungbeetle

  If Watchtower has to add words again and again, to the Scriptures to make their point, then something is terribly terribly wrong.

  Jesus said: No one comes to the father excepth through ME.

  Jesus said: Ask in my name and I will do it.

  This is not rocket science. It is, however, cult science.

  BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.

  
• 

  ozziepost

  Earnest,

  If you really think everyone goes to heaven where do you think Adam expected to go (a) before he sinned (b) after he sinned. And why do you so answer? Where do you think Eve (who was deceived) expected to go after she sinned, and why do you so answer? Finally, where do you think they went...and why do you so answer.

  Adam: He didn't expect to go anywhere before he sinned, he was in the presence of God. After he sinned, he knew he would leave the presence of God for eternity, "into the ground".

  Eve: The same as Adam.

  I think the above.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  Will Power

  Thank you ozzie. Adam was already with God. That was his paradise.
  Paradise is wherever God is. Heaven is wherever God is.

  Who said I think everyone goes to heaven? Was it a bible quote that spooked you?

  Paradise on earth is a nice vacation but it will not last forever. If you go by the bible, the flesh means nothing.

  If you based your whole life, meaning, purpose, on a book that said the flesh means nothing why would you hope that your flesh would live forever? Because of an old Rutherford book?
  Why would you think being where god is not would be paradise?
  because the air is clean?
  because you could trust your neighbour?
  Like you can trust ALL witnesses now? They are now supposedly living in spiritual paradise. Even tho they do not own a spirit, or ever hope to have one.

  A printing company can only fool some of the people some of the time.

  It is your time.
• 

  Grunt

  I think the Bible says that if you are in the covenant, your sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ. This blood is referred to as the "blood of the covenant." It seems to me, no blood, no covenant, no covenant, no forgiveness of sins. Now, according to the Society only the "Anointed" the "144,000" are in the covenant, hence only they partake of the emblem of Christ's blood which signifies forgiveness of sins, The "other sheep" or "alien residents" or "foreigners" who make up "The Great Crowd" are not forgiven. The Society then twists this even further and says the "144,000" can gradually apply the ransom and it's power to erase sins, really the Blood of the Covenant to the other sheep, without them ever being in a covenant of any kind. I find no support in the Bible for this. Maybe they got it from the "Great Stone Witness" along with their dates?

  Here are some quotes on the blood being a part of the covenant. As I read it, you can't have the blood without being in the covenant.

  Mark 14: 23 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, and they all drank out of it. 24 And he said to them: "This means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many

  Luke: 22:19 .... Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

  Matthew 26: 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: "Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
• 

  Earnest

  Ozzie,

  Did Eve expect the same punishment as Adam? Or was she deceived and expected no punishment at all? That's what Milton suggests in Book IX of Paradise Lost where the serpent says to her:

  do not believe
  Those rigid threats of death; ye shall not die.
  How should ye? by the fruit? it gives you life
  To knowledge; by the Threatener? look on me,
  Me who have touched and tasted, yet both live
  And life more perfect have attained than Fate
  Meant me, by venturing higher than my lot.
  Shall that be shut to Man which to the beast
  Is open? or will God incense his ire
  For such a petty trespass, and not praise
  Rather your dauntless virtue, whom the pain
  Of death denounced, whatever thing Death be,
  Deterred not from achieving what might lead
  To happier life, knowledge of good and evil?
  Of good, how just? of evil-if what is evil
  Be real, why not known, since easier shunned?
  God, therefore, cannot hurt ye, and be just;
  Not just, not God; not feared then, nor obeyed:
  Your fear itself of death removes the fear.

  And Eve concludes:

  In the day we eat
  Of this fair fruit, our doom is we shall die!
  How dies the Serpent? He hath eaten, and lives,
  And knows, and speaks, and reasons, and discerns,
  Irrational till then. For us alone
  Was death invented? or to us denied
  This intellectual food, for beasts reserved?

  And even Adam reasons:

  Nor can I think that God, Creator wise
  Though threat'ning, will in earnest so destroy
  Us, his prime creatures, dignified so high,
  Set over all his works; which, in our fall,
  Dependent made. So God shall uncreate,
  Be frustrate, do, undo, and labour lose-
  Not well conceived of God; who, though his power
  Creation could repeat, yet would be loth
  Us to abolish, lest the Adversary
  Triumph and say: "Fickle their state whom God
  Most favours; who can please him long?
  He ruined, now Mankind; whom will he next?"-
  Matter of scorn not to be given the Foe.

  I write this not to prove a point, but to share a love. You haven't lived if you haven't read Milton.

  Earnest
• 

  LeslieV

  I was wondering what year was the Question to the Readers that was quoted above.

  Geeeee I was in the org for years I must have missed it. I thought I was a fairly intelligent person..after reading that alot of people think JW's have love IQ's maybe I fit. hahahah
  Leslie
• 

  plmkrzy

  I came back to this thread to see if there was any progress as to the meaning of these “Quotes” and read through it again then decided, hey! Just go to the different links and web sites and read. Gosh a novel idea?

  You guys had me all confused wondering what the heck has been going on now at the KH’s in the past couple of years that I am missing out on. I was seriously considering attending the meeting on Sunday just to listen to the opening prayer for the talk and the closing prayer and stay through the entire WT study just to listen to the closing prayer at the end of that. Sheeeesh!
  You people are debating over things that haven’t even happened yet.

  BTW in regards to the Lords evening meal and who and how many partook of the emblems there was also a man being put to death for committing murder that did not attend dinner with the disciples nor was he a disciple and before Jesus died he promised him (Mr. Pilot) that he would be with him in heaven. Which made him right then and there one of the anointed. There wasn’t anybody under his umbrella when he was dieing beside Jesus.
  This umbrella thang is nothing more then a metaphor that means those exercising their faith in Christ regardless of what their situation is will obviously get the front row seats and the rest of us (which is no doubt a LOT) who are wishy washy whinny and sniveling about it and half hearted will just have to get in line.

  No one on earth is suppose to pray to God without recognizing that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, our savior because if we can’t even remember THAT much then why in the hell should Jesus father give a rats ass about our sometimes pathetic prayers.
  These anointed ones do not have authority over Christ.
  Christ DIED and mentioning him in our prayers is our acknowledgement of that. The anointed ones have not yet all died. (UH… CLUE ALERT!) Jesus has not returned yet for the great battle and until that happens there is no one between God and us except for Jesus.
  That is pretty plain and clear and easy enough for anyone with a brain cell to comprehend.

  If my son died saving any of you or anyone else from death and that person chose to just blow it off like it was no big deal and ESPECIALLY if my son was spit on and tortured before dieing a horrible death, I wouldn’t care if you died or not. And If you one day became homeless and I saw you on the street begging for food not only would I turn and walk the other way but I’m sure I would at least give you a dirty look first. AT least! I might even go so far as to yell “Hey F*** You! A** HOLE!” Eat s*** and die!
  But then I’m only human.

  I must be in a really bad mood today. Thank God through Jesus for this D.B I feel so much better now.

  
  

  Life sucks...get a helmet

  http://ourworld.cs.com/pwmkwzy/home.html