I need help! Talk coming up and I need ideas fast!

by BU2B 75 Replies latest jw friends

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    Moses had (according to the Bible stories) credentials. There was the 10 Plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, etc.

    You could simply emphasize the importance of requiring evidence of God's appointment, and completely ignore mentioning the "modern day organization."

    The silence on the subject may be noted by those that are awake or waking up, yet no one--even a suspicious elder--can bust you on it.

    If they try, you could evade by saying, "I simply didn't have enough time for any more material in my talk."

    But I doubt anyone would even question you. Elders hear what they want to hear; most of the sheep are the same. Probably any comments will be along the lines of, "I really enjoyed your part tonight!" Seriously, there is very little, if any, critical thinking going on in any Kingdom Halls.

    For the last three years I was an elder I never spoke about any doctrines which I didn't accept, and I mean NEVER.I even quit giving public talks on subjects I no longer believed. I regularly had meeting parts (as in every single week) and gave public talks at least every other month. So we're talking about 200-ish public parts, not including regular comments during meetings. During all that time I never once talked about end-times prophecies, the authority of the GB, the identity of the FDS or the blood issue.

    No one, and I mean NO ONE, every questioned me about it. Truth be known, I was shocked no one seemed to notice. If anyone did, they never said anything.

  • BU2B
    BU2B

    THANKS ALL for your suggestions thus far. I am still not sure if I will do it but here is what I have thrown together for the talk so far.. What do you think?? Any refinements you guys and gals would add?

    Abiram! What does this name bring to your mind? Rebellion? Divine Judgement? Improper pride? Or maybe something else..

    Lets read numbers 16:1-3 And Ko′rah the son of Iz′har, the son of Ko′hath, the son of Le′vi, proceeded to get up, together with Da′than and A·bi′ram the sons of E·li′ab, and On the son of Pe′leth, the sons of Reu′ben. 2 And they proceeded to rise up before Moses, they and two hundred and fifty men of the sons of Israel, chieftains of the assembly, summoned ones of the meeting, men of fame. 3 So they congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: “That is enough of YOU, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should YOU lift yourselves up above the congregation of Jehovah?”

    Abiram here was challenging Moses authority. Why did he do that? Was it pride? A quest for power of his own? Jealosy? Regardless the end result of Korah, Dathan,and Abirams actions are found here

    And it came about that as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them began to be split apart. 32 And the earth proceeded to open its mouth and to swallow up them and their households and all humankind that belonged to Ko′rah and all the goods. 33 So down they went, and all who belonged to them, alive into She′ol, and the earth went covering them over, so that they perished from the midst of the congregation. 34 And all the Israelites who were round about them fled at the screaming of them, for they began to say: “We are afraid that the earth may swallow us up!” 35 And a fire came out from Jehovah and proceeded to consume the two hundred and fifty men offering the incense.

    What a strong punishment for their actions. Many organizations today claim to be Gods true religion or the only way to life. Many even use this very bible account in numbers to strike fear into their members so that they never question what they are told. The mormons for example use these scriptures to prove that you should never question their leadership and should obey without question or complaint. However the leaders of these human organizations are missing one thing that Moses had.. PROOF. Proof that God is actually using them.

    Moses had PROOF God was using him to lead the people. Korah must have had a short memory to have forgotten this when he thought God would back him up.

    What Proof did Moses have? Please turn with me to Exodus 14: 19-21. Just like in the first century christians with evidence like speaking in tounges, healing the sick and lame, resurections and so on, There was abundant proof that God was backing Moses. Think of the ten plagues of egypt, the water into blood, the frogs, the gnats, the gadflies, the pestilence, the boils, the hail, the locusts, the darkness, and the firstborns being killed. Also the manna provision, moses face being so bright they had to cover him, and also this one found at Exodus 13:20-22. All these things should have shown Abiram and the others that God was using Moses at that time and that he was a true God inspired leader. Also Moses was not asking the people to do anything contrary to what they knew was right.

    Is is automatic that someone should always obey someone God is using? Please turn to Exodus 32: 1-4

    When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods [ a ] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

    2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, [ b ] Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

    We know that Jehovah also used Aaron along with moses, and he was the high priest. We see here he commamded the people to tear off their gold. Would you have done that? Would you obey that order? Well you would have done well if you did not. Would you have reasoned that he is the high preist appointed by Jehovah so we have to do whatever he says? That would be faulty reasoning.

    Today as Christians, we follow Jesus. We should be loyal to humans only if they are following the pattern Jesus laid out for humans to follow and who are loyal to him. And as Galatians 1:8,9 bring out, do not divert from the ORIGINAL good news that Christ taught. People today must be alert to see the difference or they risk being blinded and decieved by men who are not really Gods true servants, but an imitation.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    BU2B: Many organizations today claim to be Gods true religion or the only way to life. Many even use this very bible account in numbers to strike fear into their members so that they never question what they are told. The mormons for example use these scriptures to prove that you should never question their leadership and should obey without question or complaint. However the leaders of these human organizations are missing one thing that Moses had.. PROOF. Proof that God is actually using them.

    Woohoo, you're my hero!!!

    Damn, those nasty Mormons, damn them all to hell!

    I love it.

    You must give this talk.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    The point I would be making Is that even though there was clear evidence and PROOF god was using moses, he rebelled anyways. I would subtly be making the point that the GB today has no proof or evidence. I would make no application to our day.

    IMHO, unless you specifically emphasize that we today must have clear evidence and proof god was using someone we're following, then we shouldn't follow them--then you're making their point, in their way.

    Some of these quotes might be helpful to make this point, in their own words.

  • Separation of Powers
    Separation of Powers

    I thought about the way that the talk might be given....

    SAMPLE TALK: Abiram

    Is it wise to simply follow a crowd just because it seems that they are right and someone else is wrong? Is it wise to give in to the peer pressure of a group?

    There is an old saying, "show me who you associate with and I will tell you who you are."

    This saying aptly can be made of Abiram. Now there are 3 different Abirams mentioned in the Bible, I guess it was once a common Hebrew name. But, the one we are referring to tonight is the one mentioned in the book of Number. He is mentioned in connection with his brother, Dathan and another, more notable fellow...Korah.

    You may remember Korah as the principal "noteworthy" who challenged the authority of Moses and Aaron in the desert. Abiram was part of his inner circle. Although he was complicit in relation to this rebellion against Moses, it was apparently the "fame" of Korah that moved him to join in this endeavor. Let's read about this in Numbers chapter 16 (choose a couple of the verses that highlight Korah as the ringleader.)

    We learn valuable lessons from this account. Notice how the men involved in this rebellion were men of "fame" or "noteworthy." They were respected men who used their notariety to promote their interests NOT God's. By rebelling, they were in direct conflict with God.

    We must remember that Moses was the mediator between God and Israel. These "noteworthy" ones did not wish to see Moses fulfill those duties, rather, they wished to take the place of Moses. Afterall, didn't they say in verse 3 "are we not all consecrated?" (Or something like that...I am trying to remember the story from memory)

    No, they wished the fame for themselves. Today, Jesus is God's chosen mediator. Never should we allow someone or something to try and overshadow his relevance in God's purpose or try to take the honor and prestige for themselves and thus, affect our relationship with the Most High, just a Korah Dathan and Abiram did.

    The example of Korah Dathan and Abiram serves in another capacity as well. Notice Number 26:10-11. There were others that joined in the rebellion against the Mediator, Moses, 250 others in fact. They did so willingly. They may have been pressured by others in the group to conform to a line of reasoning that was shallow or unfounded, Who knows? But, they blindly followed. Yes, they should have asked questions. They should have wondered if there was some "other" reason why Korah Dathan and Abiram were asking people to follow them or at least "respect" their authority, although self-appointed. Who knows why? But, they apparently did not. No, in the eyes of God, they were just as guilty as the three, no four with the inclusion of the man On. They accepted that these "men" wanted to be treated as special. That they "deserved" consideration because they "believed" that they were in fact special and others conferred that "specialness" to them. No, the destruction of those 250 was a warning for the Israelites and serves as a warning for us. Never, never should we allow anyone to take the place of God's chosen Mediator. It is he alone that Jehovah has appointed. Let the example of Abiram be a warning for us. A warning to not simply follow others, but, as Christians, follow God's appointed ruler.

  • Ding
    Ding

    In line with your argument that Jehovah always provides proof of who should or shouldn't be followed, you might point out that although people today don't make golden calves, modern day people often claim to speak for God but make predictions that don't come true.

    WT quote:

    "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an `end to the world,' even announcing a specific date. Some have gathered groups of people with them and fled to the hills or withdrawn into their houses waiting for the end. Yet, nothing happened. The `end' did not come. They were guilty of false prohesying." Awake, October 8, 1968, p. 23.

    Example: Harold Camping, who predicted the rapture several years ago and finally had to admit he was wrong.

    Don't be surprised, though, if most of the people who hear your talk will just think you did a great job of bashing Christendom.

    Even those who see the irony in what you have said may wonder if you are a closet apostate or a completely clueless borg drone.

  • BU2B
    BU2B

    Great quote ding! I will incorporate it. I should just have fun with my talks now, nothing to lose really.. They will probably bump me down to readings only after this one lol

  • villagegirl
    villagegirl

    You could pose the question: Who is the other "faithful slave" mentioned in Matt 25 ?

    There were two faithful approved slaves, one with five talents and one with two, both

    "put in charge" you could then recount all possibilities, like it applies to everyone, it

    is not about central authority, and qoute scriptures about "one hope, one body, one spirit"

    "no man is your leader, but Christ " Lots of material on this site.

    If you are going out, go out with a bang.

  • ILoveTTATT
    ILoveTTATT

    Wooow!! If you give the talk just like you wrote it... you'd be my hero!!!!

  • BU2B
    BU2B

    EDITED VERSION.. It goes 30 seconds overtime but do you think I give a damn? Thanks to Ding and everyone else for your tips.. keep them coming.

    Abiram! What does this name bring to your mind? Rebellion? Divine Judgement? Or maybe something else.

    Lets read numbers 16:2-3 2 And they proceeded to rise up before Moses, they and two hundred and fifty men of the sons of Israel, chieftains of the assembly, summoned ones of the meeting, men of fame. 3 So they congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: “That is enough of YOU, because the whole assembly are all of them holy and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should YOU lift yourselves up above the congregation of Jehovah?”

    Abiram here was challenging Moses authority. Why did he do that? Was it pride? A quest for power of his own? Jealosy? Regardless the end result of Korah, Dathan,and Abirams actions are found here

    And it came about that as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them began to be split apart. 32 And the earth proceeded to open its mouth and to swallow up them and their households and all humankind that belonged to Ko′rah and all the goods. 33 So down they went, and all who belonged to them, alive into She′ol, and the earth went covering them over, so that they perished from the midst of the congregation. 34 And all the Israelites who were round about them fled at the screaming of them, for they began to say: “We are afraid that the earth may swallow us up!” 35 And a fire came out from Jehovah and proceeded to consume the two hundred and fifty men offering the incense.

    What a strong punishment for their actions. Many organizations today claim to be Gods true religion or the only way to life. Many even use this very bible account in numbers to strike fear into their members so that they never question what they are told. The mormons for example use these scriptures to prove that you should never question their leadership and should obey without question or complaint. However the leaders of these human organizations are missing one thing that Moses had.. PROOF. Proof that God is actually using them.

    Moses had PROOF God was using him to lead the people. Korah must have had a short memory to have forgotten this when he thought God would back him up.

    What Proof did Moses have? . Just like the first century christians with evidence like speaking in tounges, healing the sick and lame, resurections and so on, There was abundant proof that God was backing Moses. Think of the ten plagues of egypt, the water into blood, the frogs, the gnats, the gadflies, the pestilence, the boils, the hail, the locusts, the darkness, and the firstborns being killed. Also the manna provision, moses face being so bright they had to cover him, and also this one found at Exodus 13:20-22 (pillar of cloud and fire). All these things should have shown Abiram and the others that God was using Moses at that time and that he was a true God inspired leader. Also Moses was not asking the people to do anything contrary to what they knew was right.

    Is is automatic that someone always obey someone God is using? Please turn to Exodus 32: 2,3 We know that Jehovah also used Aaron along with moses, and he was the high priest. We see here he commamded the people to tear off their gold. Would you have done that? Would you obey that order? Well you would have done well if you did not. Would you have reasoned that he is the high preist appointed by Jehovah so we have to do whatever he says? That would be faulty reasoning.

    Although no one is making golden calves today,

    modern day people often claim to speak for God but make predictions that don't come true.

    This point is brought out in the awake magazine

    "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an `end to the world,' even announcing a specific date. Some have gathered groups of people with them and fled to the hills or withdrawn into their houses waiting for the end. Yet, nothing happened. The `end' did not come. They were guilty of false prohesying." Awake, October 8, 1968, p. 23.

    Today as Christians, we follow Jesus. We should be loyal to humans only if they are following the pattern Jesus laid out for humans to follow and who are loyal to him. And as Galatians 1:8,9 bring out, do not divert from the ORIGINAL good news that Christ taught. We today, just like in Moses day and the 1 st century need to be able to see proof of God using men if we are to follow their lead. People today must be alert to see the difference or they risk being blinded and decieved by men who are not really Gods true servants, but false prophets, a clever imitation.

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