Folks, I have no idea what "universal sovereignty" means. Never heard the term before here. I know what each individual terms means, of course.
Jesus had to die? Really?
by punkofnice 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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punkofnice
BOTR. From memory it was a term invented by some geezer at the watchtower® yonks ago (writing comittee?).
I believe it is unique to the watchtower®✴
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snowbird
According to WT dogma, the issue of universal sovereignty was supposed to have come into play in the Garden of Eden when Satan challenged Jehovah's right to rule.
Adam and Eve took Satan's side of the issue.
Man was then given so many years to come up with a workable alternative solution, which, of course, he couldn't.
So, it was left up to Jehovah to settle the issue when His Son, known as Michael in the heavens, was sent to earth to suffer and die, and was raised to heavenly life and placed on the throne to rule all Creation.
Convoluted?
You bet!
Sylvia
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Rattigan350
Here we are in the Congregational book study, studying about how powerful Jehovah is, but yet he bows to the challenges of other spirit beings to create a test and then when the test fails, to make a punishment and then to create a redemption and to have his son do that. All that for a sense of justice.
It is said that Love is his greatest attribute, but none of that is loving.
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kaik
BOTR, I have not seen that someone had bashed Christianity in this threat. Only some people are skeptical on the values and existence of the main proponent of the Christian faith, Jesus. There are billions of people around the world who do not believe in Jesus, nor care whatever Christianity had to say from China through India to utterly secular Europe. Jews do not believe in Jesus nor care what Christianity teaches. Christianity is wanning in the region of its origin, in the Middle East and through of entire Europe. Only USA is the country in the history of humanity that equates christianity with national and personal identity (nation concept did not originated until 18th century under influence of Englightenment and French Revolution), and produced after four religious awakening dozens of crazy religious groups from LDS to JW to Adventists. It is also the biggest donor and financier of Christian churches around the world, including Catholic, the biggest exporter of preachers, bibles, and religous publication. However, outside USA they reach on limit of people who would believe in religous dogma and nonsense. Almost all American based religious groups after innitial success reached plateau from which they do not grow. This is certainly issue with JW who are the same number in my native Eastern European country as was 30 years ago; the same for LDS and 7DA.
Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Robespierre were all dictators. Hitler and Robespierre were religious people, yet it did not prevent them to send thousands of people into their death. Stalin was rised to be a priest. There was a strong belief under communism that he was secretely still religious. His mother refused to ever talk to him for abandoning his priest career and refused to talk to him even when he became a dictator of USSR. Justinian is considered as the most christian ruler of the late Antiquity. He is almost venerated as a saint for Greek Orthodox church. Yet, very a few care that he was before Genghis Khan the most blood thirsty ruler ever, surpasing such monsters as Nero, Caracalla, Domitian, or Diocletian. In his reing he exterminated about 5-10% of world population, something that was only matched by Genghis.
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Band on the Run
The Bolsheviks were well known for their atheism. Putin as standard bearer for the Orthodox Church may be even scarier. Jews care very much what Christians believe. Depending on doctrine or even just personality, they could be persecuted and expelled from a country. Read Constantine's Sword.
I don't believe this universal sovereignty business is consistent with Genesis. Does anyone wonder why the Witnesses have such unique belief when there are prob. thousands of forms of Christianity.
I've researched it and discussed it with Jewish friends - Jesus would not believe in Satan the way many Christians do. In the OT, Satan is an advocate for humans. He questions God.
I don't understand why more people don't pull a Bible off a shelf or call some free Bible service. How difficult is it to google "Jehovah's Witnesses?"
The Jesus temptation stories always bothered me. According to scripture, Jesus is far superior in powers to the Christian Satan. Why struggle? Jesus is the predetermined winner. Why would God grant Satan rule on earth? /the earth remains the earth. I believe Jesus need not die. It is very suspicious b/c so many other ancient religions have a dying and rising god. It appears that we are just some lab experiment. This God is very bloody.
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kaik
No BOTR, my orthodox jewish in-laws do not care what Christians believe, but are familiar with Christian faith. I knew religious Jews in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary who had the same attitude, they cared very little on beliefs of the dominant Catholic church there through the years I lived there. My Jewish friend was for the first time ever in Catholic monastery with me when we went for trip, and was not whatsoever familiar with Catholic doctrine or beliefs even in country where he was born and lived entire life. It was not medieval times when it matter and National socialism was think of the past and people really do not care about WWII since 1960's. Bolsheviks had official doctrine of non religious affiliation, but again, I lived under communist rule for 20 years and I am very much familiar what was official or not, and what really mattered.
Jews do not believe in Devil. It was an invention of Christianity. They do believe in Satan, but it is not antipole of God, but someone who is in God's service. Bible is irrelevant to billions of people. Islam has own religious book yet very a few Christian are vocal and whine about it. Two and half billion of citizens in China and India are not Christians and would not consider Bible as authorative text for their day to day living.
The temptation of Jesus never made much sense to me. First how in the round 3D world could Jesus and Devil observe all the kingdom of the world. Additionally why would Jesus accept invitation of Devil to go on hike on top of mountain or rooftop of the temple (did anyone seen two dude standing on the roof?). If Devil had power to transfor and transport anyone supernaturally, from where he would derive such power?
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suavojr
Here we go again... Band on the run, Why did Jesus have to die for me? How does xtian mainstream define and explain this?
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punkofnice
So what other alternatives do you think a god could have had rather than make mankind suffer and kill his son/part of self?