Jesus had to die? Really? (page 4)

TheWonderofYou

Punk of nice, hello. You are coming up with a question which has bothered me too.

I think that mediation about the self-sacrificing, devotional and humble service of Jesus himself can be one of the answers to this puzzyfool question.

First, Jesus would have certainly laughed about the Jehovas witnesses arguing, that Adam or Satan could ever offend Gods sovereinty. Even if he had known this JW concept, he would never have preached about that stuff or admitted his valuable time to contradict that.

to be continued..

cofty

mediation about the self-sacrificing, devotional and humble service of Jesus himself can be one of the answers

I can't imagine how you can read the gospels and think of Jesus as humble.

Band on the Run

I don't know many mainstream Christians today who would have a simple answer. This is in stark contrast to the past. When there is a "troublesome" scripture assigned to the preaching, the priests evade the issue and find some element that can be applied to daily life. B/c I am present, many priests have to back me up and let the parish know they don't believe in miraculous Bible stories as literal truth. I don't know. in Manhattan, I am the toast of the town with my observations. In PA, I was told to shut up. They have no power in the church to tell me to shut up.

I truly feel that members here don't understand the transformation in mainstream churches. Of course, I would never encounter it under usual circumstances. They aren't taught fundamentalism in seminary. People here assume that I believe in fundamentalism or fairy tales when I don't. Maybe three people in the church believe in fairy tales. Many seminary students cross-register at Columbia University. One can be well read and still be a belieiver. I would say that only half my college class were ardent atheists. B/c of the 1968 disruption at Columbia, the school recruited more docile Yeshiva and Roman Catholic students. The faculty said they could just repeat facts. They publicly said their lack of critical thinking skills was pulling the school down. SDS students did well in class. This belief that all Christians are fundamentalists and idiots is false.

Because the mainstream churches no longer teach the old time religion, the numbers are dropping. Americans do not like intellectuals. They hate New Yorkers for their sophstication. New York hates them back. I've read it has always been this way in America. The mainstream churches are too intellectual for their taste. Emotional release is what they want.

DATA-DOG

Jesus was a man like Buddah. He ascended to his spiritual zenith. Since he was a threat to the powers that existed, he was killed. To prevent any more Jesus/Buddah types from cropping up, the Council of Nicea decided what ancient books were from "GOD", and which were not. It's just coincidence that all the "HOLY" books benefit organized religions that make BILLIONS of dollars while encouraging a martyr-like do nothing attitude.

Xianity serves a two-fold purpose. 1) It makes Atheists. 2) It makes people stop progressing since they are "saved." Instead of having a spiritually free and technologically advanced human race, we have religious fundie nut-jobs versus Athiests who discount all spirituality because of the idiotic behavior of fundies.

So "Jesus" had to die in order for the current system to exist.

DD

Band on the Run

Data-Dog,

You most certainly are not describing me. People here are far more bitter than I am. Play "hate Jesus" as much as you like. It does not bother Jesus.

DATA-DOG

I don't hate anyone. We have been told myths and half-truths our whole lives. If you are not a hypocrite or closed-minded then my comments don't apply to you.

kassad84

We have been told myths and half-truths our whole lives.

Grow up man and get over it.

kaik

Churches are dynamic and they change over the time. In USA the power of the Christianity is huge and many people takes their faith as part of their personal identity. European churches are on suvival mode, but they really do not care about reaching the masses, as they have accummulated enough wealth and oppulence. You will almost never encounter them in the politics. Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches were discredited for their support of monarchies and later Fascist government where they gave a rise to clerical, fascist republics like in Croatia and Slovakia. After 1945, their role diminished and they lost importance as state furnished social and healthcare services from universal payer system. USA is unique that many foreigner observes often mention American evangelical movement as a new form of fascism (Evangelical Fascism). They most vivid contrast is how American Christians react to European churches. I toured Americans as a travel guide through Prague and Bohemia were medieval churches do not have issue to show nudity ranging from breast feading on Jesus on 500 year old painting to vivid description of orgies in ancient Sodom. Americans were the only one who reacted with shock. There was also issue where American tourists deliberatelly destroyed medieval painting; recently hebrew sing on Charles Bridge above statute of Jesus that was there for 500 years and survived 30Year War, Fascist, and Communists.

Problem with Christianity, either orthodox, convervative, liberal, or evangelical, that they derive their knowledge of Jesus from very small number of books in the New Testament that were certified 300 years later by Nicean council under the supervison of the Roman Emperor. Did Jesus really existed as is described in the Bible? We do not know. Did Jesus had to die? Of course, he had mortal body. Did he knew he will die? Yes hew knew, he pissed off a lot of important people (Matthew 16:21-23). Was he afriad of death? Yes he was - Luke 22:41-44 .

TheWonderofYou

"Sovereignty", "Universal Sovereignty", "Total Sovereignty" "Allmighty" sound like very cool and heartless. Would be interesting how we came to
all these overfreighted words. What the monotheistic religions from the antice world until today implicated with that technical term.

Incontrary we have the Bibel with the sermon of the mountains where Jesus tells us about God about his love:

Jesus says God is the only who loves us like in the sermon of the mountains,

we are beloved,save and retrieved in God, healed by God, have an eternal homeland with God, this was the gospel of Jesus.
A new picture of God for many at that time : A God who loves his enemies, who waits not controlls us.

Jesus speaks of a law not of a controlling sticklers for the letter of the law but, love does not repay
an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth (very adequate, just and rightous)
but instead the law of love is: love your enemies like I love my enemies.

God is lookinf for the love of his enemies (Matthew 5,46 and 26,25) and thus God is a soverein not a tyrann, a loving sovereign who says: "Blessed are those who make peace" (Matthew 5,9).

Love is the heart of christianity. Love is the center of all.

-Bible says who loves is a friend of god, god takes home in this person. Bible teaches
who finds mercy and love will find God.

- undeserved love (John 13,34) this is Gods attribute, people like Jesus because they felt that we was speaking with poor, ill, excommunicated people,
which had problems with the Jewish society, even with enemiies of the faith,
Jesus taught love without reserve and selflessness, a love like a mother has to its child.
Pain and Evil will not be solved with justification, legislation but trough love.

So and not otherwise we have to understand christian love and Gods Universal Merciful Sovereignty.

.

Heaven

Ok, putting down the logical and rational thoughts I have that this is all myth...

and back to your original question there punk, I'd say God should be 'big' enough to forgive Adam and Eve, let them live the remaining years of their lives in his Garden of Eden lab experiment (of course, he'd have to remove the tree of life or they'd become Gods and could then deal with him on more equal footing), and remove their ability to have offspring.

God could easily start over with a much better design.

Jesus had to die? Really?

Share this