by OneEyedJoe 80 Replies latest jw experiences
Thanks so much for your well thought out and insightful thread! Your comments are spot-on.
Welcome!
I relate so much to your circumstances and your experience! I lurked here for years before I had the courage to join up...now I'm almost addicted to the site.
As everyone has said, please feel welcome, and share in the interchange here on the forum.
Thanks for the great outpouring of support. It seems the overwhelming majority reccommend Hassan's books, so I guess I'd be foolish not to check them out. I'm typically a voracious reader/learner and tend to get over-research things before taking action, which hopefully will make it fairly easy. I can be patient, and plan to attempt a fade.
In the interest of brevity (and it's probably arguable whether or not I achieved it) I left a lot out of my first post, but because it seems there is some interest, I'll try to elaborate and respond to some of your questions. Also, I'm trying to avoid disclosing too much personally identifying information, as the last thing I want is to be backed into a corner on the off chance that one of the elders or someone else that I know is hypocritically lurking here in order to 'out' doubters. I feel like this is unlikely from what I know of most of my congregation, but clearly I've been fooled before by this religion so a little caution is in order.
Luckily, I don't have any kids to worry about, so there's definitely less of a rush to get out. Neither my wife nor I want kids at all, which seems to seperate us from a lot of young JW couples - and that's likely a strong advantage.
It was asked why I'm not an MS at my age. Well, while I'm generally well liked in the congregation, my 'stats' just haven't been up to snuff. About 3 years ago, I was told that I'm no longer going to be allowed to be used as a reader for the WT because I don't comment enough. I was also encouraged to help my wife comment more. Then about a year ago two elders sat me down and told me that they would like to be able to reccommend me for MS, but I need to comment more and get more time in service. I've since made no changes, and they've yet to talk to me again.
A few of you have already suggested that I focus on being the best husband that I can. Over the last few days of intense thought on all the changes that I'm going through, I've realized myself that this is going to be very important. One of my biggest regrets in all this is that over the last couple years, I've allowed the stress of my cognitive dissonance to affect my marriage negatively. While I still consider myself to have been a good husband (and I believe my wife does as well) I recognize that I've not been as good as I was early in our marriage, and certainly not as good as I can be. That's currently my #1 goal - to be the best husband that I can be. I already feel myself doing better simply from the weight that's been lifted, and I believe my wife has noticed as well.
It will be interesting to see where all this goes. The congregation that I'm in (my wife's parent's) has always recognized that they're a little different than most others. The elders all enjoy a good drink, and spirited debate on doctrinal issues is not always as frowned upon as in other congregations that I've been in. In fact one elder in particular went through a period of doubt on many doctrinal issues (I wasn't around when this happened, but it is sometimes spoken about) and always remained an elder until health problems got in the way. Shortly before his death, though, he gave an interesting talk that addressed head-on the many changes in doctrine that happened over the years. The main thrust was that this is the truth, and has always been the truth - just because a large change is made doesn't make what we previously believed any less truth than what we believe now. This talk confused and shocked me because I always knew him to be exceptionally reasonable and logical himself and apparently he was often remanded to 'wait on Jehovah's organization.' In hindsight, I now wonder if he truely believed what he was saying or if he'd decided it was too late for him and this was an attempt to force people to think on the obvious flaw in his argument.
Another aspect that could prove to be a challenge is that my father in law is the head of my service group, and as such will immediately notice if I become irregular. However he's also expressed his own doubts about things, and just the other day stated of the overlapping generation change: "I don't like it because it puts the end further off." Of course he followed it up with a reference to John 6:68 saying "but where else would we go?" It may be wishful thinking, but the way he said it sounded like it had a hint of saddness in it, as if he actually wanted an alternative. Who knows, maybe this will lead somewhere. Over the years I've finally gained a little of his respect and he enjoys a spirited debate (especially after a drink or two) and this may yeild a way for my wife and I to get out without her losing her close family bonds.
With regard to my lack of anger:
Finally, I'll wrap this up with a reply to Nathan Natas' post. I was by no means without anger through this entire process. Of course I find what is being done to be morally repugnant. However, I find it to be useless to remain angry. First, as I said, I can point to no individual who I believe has knowingly done me wrong. Furthermore, I (as I'm sure most here can attest to as well) have seen that people have a remarkable knack for rationalization of wrong actions, to the point where they truely and genuinely believe that what they're doing is right. Especially in cases where something has been instilled in you for decades, since birth. It is for this reason that I cannot state that even all in the Governing Body are knowingly and willfully hurting people. While I feel it impossible that they all believe they are pure, I also find it quite likely that some (possibly even a majority) are simply meek enough and weak enough to be consumed sufficiently by their own cognitive dissonance to allow themselves to be led by those who are more aware of what they are actually doing. Because of this, I feel that it will be more useful to approach this calmly and rationally. As you likely well know, most witnesses see so called apostates as people who must be so blindly filled with rage toward an organization that they imagine wronged them that they've allowed themselves to be the tools of the devil. I believe that the best way to help people to see the truth is to remain motivated not by anger, but by love of fellow man. It is not blind rage toward a few at the top of the organization that causes me to wish for it's destruction, it is love for all those who are currently caught up in it with no way out. I suspect that the greatest number might be swayed away not by angry 'apostates' but by using the techniques espoused by the WTBTS itself. Setting an example in a display of love and concern for our fellow man, and a genuine desire to help those who are still stuck in this organization is likely the only way a doubter will be able to see just how false the claims about 'apostates' are. If someone comes to this site and is bombarded by people who proclaim a deep hatred that drives them to take down the organization, they will simply have their biases confirmed and they will be sucked deeper into the pit. From what I've seen here so far, I can indeed attest that 'the love of the greater number' has not cooled!
OneEyedJoe - . . . However he's also expressed his own doubts about things, and just the other day stated of the overlapping generation change: "I don't like it because it puts the end further off." Of course he followed it up with a reference to John 6:68 saying "but where else would we go?" It may be wishful thinking, but the way he said it sounded like it had a hint of saddness in it, as if he actually wanted an alternative. Who knows, maybe this will lead somewhere. . . .
Hi OneEyedJoe, "but where else would we go?" is a good example of a thought-stopping platitude that JWs frequently use. Steve Hassan describes this in his books.
In time you may notice more thought-stopping platitudes. How would your FIL react if you responded, "Don't you mean whom and not where? Simon-Peter asked a rhetorical question in John 6:68. His answer was Jesus Christ and not where."
If you want a lively conversation, you could follow up with, "I have sometimes wondered why Jesus Christ did not order the twelve disciples to shun those disciples who left him in the desert in John 6:60-70. Have you every found a verse in the Bible where Jesus Christ endorsed shunning or not associating with people, who did not believe as he did?"
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
John 6:60-70
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit [a] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
OneEyedJoe:
Again. Good post.
It is wonderful that you are not consumed with anger and also lucky for you that you were not grievously harmed in the religion. Others were not so lucky!....Some ex-JWs have been terribly wronged..... However, their anger should be channelled constructively. While it is good that you do not show anger to the people you know, your being "nice" does not inform anybody about what is desperately wrong with the JW religion.
There seems to be a train of thought among some ex-JWs and even some never-JWs that ex-JWs should all just "move on" and forget about the JW religion.....Sorry, but I disagree with this viewpoint because the JW religion's policies are still harming people.
Just because people feel the need to expose this secretive religion does not mean they are foaming at the mouth with anger wishing for it's destruction. Some just wish for reform. They may very well have "moved on" but they feel the need to do what they can to inform the public about what their negative experiences were and what really goes on there.
So, I must say that I am in agreement with Natan Natas on this topic.
Dear One-eyed Joe, a BIG welcome, and thank you for your posts, I am sure they reflect what many of us felt when we first really "woke up", and still feel now, and they will be helpful to JW's reading on here, as they can see plainly for themselves that the "bitter" tag is simply untrue.
I was interested to see your F.I.L misquote John 6v68 as all mind-controlled JW's do. Peter there says (paraphrasing) "Lord, there is no one else we could go away to" and why does he say this ? "because YOUR words give everlasting life".
All active JW's equate leaving an Organization with leaving Jehovah and Jesus, this is simply not Scriptural, and simply not True.
Nowhere does scripture tell us we have to belong to an Organization.
I concur with the advice to be the very best husband on earth, well except for me of course. Let your dear wife know that you love her more than anything and will always be by her side whatever she does.
I wish you both well on life's journey, may you both find true freedom and happiness.
hi OEJ--and welcome to the rest of your life..
About 3 years ago, I was told that I'm no longer going to be allowed to be used as a reader for the WT because I don't comment enough. I was also encouraged to help my wife comment more. Then about a year ago two elders sat me down and told me that they would like to be able to reccommend me for MS, but I need to comment more and get more time in service
great---i think that neatly tells you all you need to know about that cult.
LongHairGal:
You're absolutely right, and I didn't mean to sound insensitive to those who have been grievously harmed by the organization. I, too, am not resolved to just walk away with no attempt to help those who are stuck in the organization, I don't mean to give that indication. I just feel that we must be cautious in expressing any (even justifiable) anger towards the organization because it makes it that much easy for those who are 'in' to remain dismissive of anything that follows. It's far too easy for the response to be the usual 'it's imperfect men and Jehovah will sort it out.' I feel it is imperative that any case made against the organization must be made against the organization from the top, not any one small part. However, that may just be due to my experience and the fact that I never had any direct knowledge of any willful harm commited by anyone.
Maybe I should revise my statement with awareness of my personal bias:
For me, it was important to see that 'apostates' weren't a mass of rabid, obsessed angry people, but included many who left solely because they couldn't consciencioiusly stay associated with the organization. I suspect there are many that are in my same situation, and that is why I feel it necessary to present a logical and calm case against the organization, free from any twinge of anger. It is possible that's not the case for everyone, but I don't think that I am in any way still brainwashed by the society simply because I'm not consumed with anger toward everyone participating in it.
What amazes me joe is how similar your exact situation is to so many here in recent months, myself included. my suggestion would be to take it slow if you can stomach a few meetings here and there for your wife's sake. I made up my mind to completely stop and it has made my marriage harder then it would have been to slowly slow down. My problem was that I could not take the indoctrination classes anymore, there was no benefit to be at the meetings learning a group of men's ideas with no opportunity to have a meaningful discussion.
im sure you have learned already that there are many that have a deep seated hatred for the WT, please remember that many have lost parents, children, relatives, best friends, and an entire network of friends over the course of a lifetime, all in an instant. the feelings of abandonment and isolation are powerful and are damaging, but this is the desired effect of the policy, from the policy makers. Please be patient wih the wide variety of opinions on this board. The open discussion on this board can keep you from feeling alone, there are many in your situation and many that want to help. Good luck in all your endeavors.
I hope you keep us up to date as to how things are going for you. Please use this thread so new ones will havthy our background info. It may take a while. Get your father in law boozed up and go for it!
GoUnion:
You're absolutely right, and I suppose some of what I said was insensitive, especially considering that I'm not truely 'out' yet, and haven't experienced myself the full wrath brought down upon me. Hopefully I'll be able to prevent that from ever happening, but I know that's not an option for all. I guess I was coming from a place of extreme lonliness (by design, that's the state of any doubter in the org) and momentarily forgot that others have different experience.
Also, I'm now realizing that I may harbor a bit of misplaced resentment toward those who so openly express their anger toward the organization. This is not, however, a result of residual indoctrination. I'm just sad that my awakening was delayed because the most vocal of the group (and with good reason) are those who have been wronged and have a great deal of anger. For a time, if I had doubts and stumbled upon a site like this or heard of someone who was vocal against the org, it was easy for me to be dismissive of it in much the way I mentioned in my last post. That's certainly not the fault of those who are vocal in their anger, though, and I realize that it's just the nature of these things.
Forgive me if I seem overly judgemental or myopic. I think that, too, is the nature of this type of transition (at least, I'm sure it is for many). There's a lot in me wanting to get out, and I'm sure some will make it out without being fully reasoned and vetted from all viewpoints. Thanks, all, for the patience and the overwhelming understanding and support.
Whathappened:
I'll definitely try to continue with updates, especially those that may in some way encourage others in the same situation. As I've said, that's my main goal in this, as the stories of others on this site were valuable to my seeing that it wasn't just a group of angry demon possessed crazies. With that said, I've spent way too much time reading here and jwfacts, etc lately, and really need to get some work done...
