Faithful Witness I hear a lot these days from this forum that the JWs talk about sanctifing god's name and restoring his sovereignty to the earth. Do they ever talk about the new system any more? About an end to sickness, death, poverty, war etc, just wondering? Without the emphasis on the carrot and more and more being beaten with the stick I just wonder what the attraction is.
My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...
by Faithful Witness 85 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jookbeard
you done well, she will agree and will be obsessed with the belief that there has been an uniterupted chain of faithful men since the 1st century up until the WTS was selected in 1919 as the channel, zoom in on this to her and demand to know who this group of men were, if she cant answer (she probably wont be able to) then the claim that the WTS is the only group dispensing truths to the Earth today is a rather weak claim, dont let this person get off lightly with this.
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fastJehu
I found it ironic, when we read about Paul instructing the Bereans to examine the teachings of their leaders... then she proceeded to try and "teach" me something that wasn't actually documented in the bible. (Jesus using God's personal name). If a person is a JW, then it is not allowed to proof like the Bereans. The line of reasoning:
"Bereans checked the scriptures to verify what Paul was saying, not to challenge him".
*** w81 2/15 pp. 18-19 Do We Need Help to Understand the Bible? ***
A NOBLE-MINDED VIEW
How shall we view the spiritual food provided by this “faithful and discreet slave”? Should it be viewed critically—‘Oh, well, it might be true but then again it might not be and so we have to scrutinize it very critically’? Some apparently have felt that way about it. To support their way of thinking they have quoted Acts 17:11, which says of newly interested persons at Beroea: “Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.”
But does this mean that those Beroeans were looking for flaws in the message they were hearing, or that their attitude was one of doubting? Does this set a precedent for regarding critically the publications brought forth by the “faithful and discreet slave,” with a view to finding fault? Not at all!
First of all, let us note the setting of the statement about the noble-minded Beroeans. Paul, accompanied by Silas, was on his second missionary tour. Due to persecution that arose, the brothers at Thessalonica sent them on to Beroea. In Beroea they met sincere Jews who had strong faith in God’s Word. These were not Christians yet. They were simply interested persons who had to satisfy themselves that what Paul was telling them had the support of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Up to this time, these devout Jews in Beroea may never have heard of Jesus Christ. What Paul was telling them was entirely new. So those noble-minded Jews in Beroea searched the Scriptures daily to make certain that the references that Paul gave were really part of God’s Word. And with what mental attitude did they pursue their studies? With a skeptical attitude, trying to prove Paul wrong? No, they were altogether unlike Paul’s critics on Mars Hill, for we read that they heard Paul’s testimony with “the greatest eagerness of mind.”—Acts 17:11, 32.
These Beroeans listened with a readiness, yes, an eagerness, to believe. Thus not only were they open-minded, but they were wanting to have this “good news” proved true. In fact, for a person to acquire faith he must have “the will to believe.” If he is determined not to believe, then no amount of evidence will convince him; for if a person looks for them he can always find excuses, plausible reasons for not accepting the accountability that belief will bring upon him. As the apostle Paul well said: “Faith is not a possession of all people.” (2 Thess. 3:2) But the Beroeans had the will to believe. They considered what they heard with a receptive frame of mind. As a result, “many of them became believers, and so did not a few of the reputable Greek women and of the men.”—Acts 17:12.
Jesus’ disciples wrote many letters to Christian congregations, to persons who were already in “the way of the truth.” (2 Pet. 2:2) But nowhere do we read that those brothers first, in a skeptical frame of mind, checked the Scriptures to make certain that those letters had Scriptural backing, that the writers really knew what they were talking about.OUR VIEW OF THE “SLAVE”
We can benefit from this consideration. If we have once established what instrument God is using as his “slave” to dispense spiritual food to his people, surely Jehovah is not pleased if we receive that food as though it might contain something harmful. We should have confidence in the channel God is using. At the Brooklyn headquarters from which the Bible publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses emanate there are more mature Christian elders, both of the “remnant” and of the “other sheep,” than anywhere else upon earth.
True, the brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe. Over the years, as adjustments have been made to that body of truth, it has become ever more wonderful and applicable to our lives in these “last days.” Bible commentators of Christendom are not inspired either. Despite their claims to great knowledge, they have failed to highlight even basic Bible truths—such as the coming Paradise earth, the importance of God’s name, and the condition of the dead.
Rather, the record that the “faithful and discreet slave” organization has made for the past more than 100 years forces us to the conclusion that Peter expressed when Jesus asked if his apostles also wanted to leave him, namely, “Whom shall we go away to?” (John 6:66-69) No question about it. We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the “faithful and discreet slave” organization.--------------------------------------------------------------------
Someone else here wrote about this:
.... the Bereans checked the scriptures to verify what Paul was saying, not to challenge him.
That doesn't make sense.
If they started out with a bias to believe Paul and didn't examine things critically, in what sense did they check things out at all?
Did they just look at a couple of isolated prooftexts cited by Paul, or did they search the scriptures thoroughly?
Besides, according to the WTS, no one can understand the scriptures without the GB's explanations, so in the WT view wasn't it useless and evidence of pride for the Bereans to examine the scriptures to see if Paul was right or wrong?
Does the GB want JWs to do what the Bereans did and check out everything they say by the scriptures?
Or do they want JWs to meekly accept whatever comes from "the slave"?
To top it off, the only "message" they had to verify was the messianic prophecies concerning Jesus. It had nothing to do with looking for an organization. Once they verified that, they could accept the simple message.
(Proverbs 14:15) 15 Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.
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Gypsy Sam
Great job! They sound like the older women in my family. A lifetime of "teaching" people about the Bible and they really can't answer a question without parroting what they've been told.
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Faithful Witness
Xanthippe: She has not mentioned the new system yet. She did talk use the phrase, "end of this system," instead of the end of the world. I have not heard any mention of that concept in so long... that is a good question. Even my parents haven't said anything. My mom once made the comment to me that the Witnesses are the only ones who teach about living forever on the paradise earth.
jookbeard: That is the key issue that I wanted to discuss with her. If I'm understanding things correctly, I would have to agree that the WTS is the channel for God on earth today. She couldn't prove that last time, so she has attempted to "set that aside" for now. I think she is trying to prove they are the only ones preaching the truth today, by showing me that what they claim is taught in the bible.
Enlightenment123: I did not know that history of the use and removal of YHWH. The thing that really strikes me, is how complicated everything has to be. There are numerous scriptures that talk about the simplicity of the message of Christ. What is the deal with all the distraction techniques, and efforts to stand out and be different? It's so clear that they want people confused, and the bible also tells us who is the master of confusion.
Thanks for that link. She was the one who said she wanted to agree that we would only work with "inspired" writings, and when I asked her if we could talk about a confusing WT article, she admitted that it wasn't going to be what the bible says. "You won't be learning what the bible says!" I got out my book last night, to remind myself. I feel pretty silly now, to realize that I was actually believing the things in that book.
The video on jw.org was strange. I'm not going to agree to another impromptu viewing of a video with them. There was definitely some kind of sublminal imagery in there, and it left me with an uneasy feeling.
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Other things that were memorable to me:
She did not pray at any time.
She asked me what version of the bible I was reading from. I told her KjV. "Is that ok?" She said, "Oh yes, that is fine. You can use ANY version of the bible that you want."
I said, "Any version. really?" There are some pretty perverted versions out there today (The Message is one that came to mind).
She said something like "they are all God's word." and added, "One lady that I have studied with uses the NIV. And did you know that our new version of the NWT has IDENTICAL footnotes to the NIV!" I gasped quietly at that, "Really? Who wrote those footnotes?"
"It doesn't matter, all bibles are the truth," or something very close to that, was her reply. I did not agree, so I said, "I don't know a lot about it, but I have heard some nefarious things about the authors of the NIV."
She didn't really seem to care about that question, which I found odd. If all bibles are accurate, then why do they need their own translation? I will bring that up again.
I did have my copy of the grey NWT sitting there next to me, but read from the KJV. We also used the JW app, which is very handy for comparing the translations.
I asked her about the Byington bible. I have never heard of that one. "Is that approved?" She said it was just another translation, and that all translations are approved.
I also plan to address the changes that were made to the new NWT. Last time, Miss W had made the claim that NOTHING had been changed, except the language. "They made it more modern and easy to read, NO meanings or teachings were changed!" She was very defensive about it, and it clearly struck a nerve. We were talking about something else at the time (Who is the FDS), so I left it alone. The removal of the brackets is a very significant change, in my opinion.
When My mother came and showed off her new bible to me the first time, we were admiring it together. She and I accidentally stumbled upon a change together, where they had changed the tense in a passage. To this I said, "That really looks like a change, Mom! I wonder what else has been changed..."
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I know that the seeds I have planted with my mom, or at least some of them, are still percolating in my mom's mind. Last time she was here, she asked me if I had asked Miss K about "the secret book." Haha... I thought it was funny she brought this up. I chuckled and said, "No. We have agreed to only talk about what is actually in the bible." I asked her if she had asked anyone about that, and she said she hadn't.
Last summer, when I had discovered that they were about to change the truth, I freaked out a little bit. I thought maybe this would wake up my parents, as they have never had to face a change yet. I sent them an email, about how I was willing to risk losing communication with them, in hopes of warning them that there are alarms going off in their publications. They are going to be told to ignore them. I quoted the article that had "the instructions that don't make sense from a human standpoint." I told them about the book called, Shepherding the Flock of God. I sent a picture of the cover, and challenged my dad to ask an elder why they were entitled to have information and instructions he was not allowed to read.
Neither of them replied to the email, and they have never mentioned it until this comment.
I did ask my mom a few months ago, about the "instructions," and what kind of things people were saying about it, and whether they were talking about "being ready to obey." She just said, "We are still waiting to see what they are." It was then that I asked her, "Do you really believe that the governing body speaks for God?" She didn't pause before saying, "Yes." That response was very jarring, and it stopped me dead in my tracks. We were actually out in a noisy restaurant at the time, and my kids were there, listening attentively. I started talking to my daughter instead. To this day, remembering that moment has a physcial effect on me.
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Back to the Miss K show.
After we watched that video, "Why should you study the bible?" (with JW's, of course), Miss K asked me, "What stood out to you in that video?"
I drew a blank, as I wasn't sure what she was fishing for. I said, "Well, I pretty much agreed, until they said that people believe that God is in control of the earth today. I don't believe that." She is not a very good listener. She thought I was saying that the video said God was in control of the earth, even though I was just trying to point out that I don't believe "what they think I believe." So we looked up a couple of verses, about how Satan is controlling the earth. Anyway...
She brought up an interesting example, with the song, "He's got the whole world in His hands." I told her I'd never thought of that song that way before...
Since we agreed that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one, that was when she started trying to reintroduce the bible teach book to me.
She said, "JW's are getting the truth from the bible. But I think you know, we DO use other tools. You know we use the Watchtower magazine and other books from the Watchtower."
I think it was at this point that I said, "JW's are very attached to that phrase, 'The Truth.' I noticed you say it a lot, and you hold it very..." and I hugged myself. They acknowledged this and said something like "dear" or "important." I again said, "Jesus is the truth! I'm concerned that you fixate so much on the name of Jehovah, and make things so complicated. Jesus is the truth. Why do you think you have to go through the Watchtower to get to the truth?"
At some point, and it might have been now, Miss W said, "We all have free will. Some people have a hard time accepting instructions from someone else, and they don't like to be told what to do." I said, "It's not just being told what to do, but being told what to believe... even when they change their mind."
Here is where I will give Miss K some credit. Even though she stuck to her mission and made sure she got me through her whole list of cherry-picked verses on her agenda, she did pick up on my pleas that she acknowledge Jesus as the way to the Father, and that He never actually told anyone to go to an organization for salvation.
Next week, she wants to talk about John 14:6, where Christ says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father, but by me."
Maybe someone here can tell me how the JW's have warped this idea, and help me be prepared for her next show. Her premise seems to be that JW's are the ones teaching the truth today, so "If what I am telling you is in the bible, it must be the truth."
She did show me the verse, where it says God is the head of Christ, and Christ is head of the church. This was one of her supporting verses, to show me that God has always used specific people or an organization to communicate with us.
I'm wondering why the JW's and Mormons both seem to believe that the bible must have been incomplete... What is the purpose of all these extra texts and publications they keep writing? I don't see, "to be continued until the end of this system of things..." written at the end.
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Faithful Witness
Fast Jehu: Thank you for the quotes and references! I will definitely bring this up again. When she makes statements I'm not familiar with, I ask her, "Where is that in the bible?" There were a couple of times yesterday, when we waited for several minutes while she tried to find her proof verses.
I am not a bible scholar. I am really just beginning to actually READ the bible with open eyes, and I know that I have a lot to learn. Asking her to show me these things in the bible, and writing down the verses she is referencing, is helping me to examine the scriptures for myself.
That is one thing I WILL give the JW's credit for. They are the ones who encouraged me to study the bible in the first place, for the first time with my adult mind. Where we parted, was when I started questioning their reasoning and their perspective. Their claims of exclusive rights to the truth, were definitely worth examination, especially if one is considering committing their life to an organization like that. We attended the meetings long enough to realize that there was something "not quite right," and there was too much judgment and control happening within the congregation.
** What's up with the security cameras throughout the KH??... At first, it looked like they were protecting the people, but then you realize they are watching you. I had a baby I was nursing, and my husband was followed into the bathroom more than once. He was once scolded for taking too long on the toilet... HELLO!! You do NOT want the alternative!! He still talks about that experience to this day. CREEPY!!
----- One last thing I just remembered from Miss K:
"So, we believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones teaching the TRUTH today. It sounds like you really aren't there yet," she said, as she got up to go.
I said, "No, I am not."
Miss W piped in with, "That's because you are still in kindergarten. It will take you awhile to get to 1st grade, then 2nd grade..."
(I kept in mind that they were recruited during the fever of 1975 and the end of the world, as Miss W continued). "Some people take longer to come to the truth. When my husband and I started studying, it only took us 3 months, and we were ready to be baptized! But they stopped us and said, 'Wait a minute... you don't KNOW quite enough yet...' so we studied for 3 more months, and THEN we got baptized!!" She was so proud of this quick progress, I could tell.
I asked her, "Why did they say that? What about that story of the guy they met on the side of the road, who asked if he could be baptized right now? Didn't they baptize him when he requested it? Why do JW's have these extra requirements, in order to be baptized? I don't understand that. Where is that in the bible?"
Miss W said, "I asked the same thing..." and they trailed off, because they were already WAY over the time we agreed to end. I just said, "You can tell, I have a lot of questions..."
I am not going to get offended by being called a kindergartener, from a woman who admits to being willing to shut off her own mind and follow the instructions of a slave. It is interesting to me, that they really seem to believe that they are studying the bible. They relish the fact that they can find verses here and there to prove their points about things, but they don't have an answer when asked what the bible truth is?
They are so fixated on these little details and side issues, that they are missing the big picture. Next week, I will find a way to say something about how much I learn from MY kindergartener, every day. My son is a brilliant example to follow. Didn't Jesus tell us to come to him like children?
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NeverKnew
It's a hard pill to swallow given the results, but I'm realizing that the best way to know what the Witnesses are taught is to simply ask what do the churches teach, believe, practice or have symbols of and know that the WTS has figured out a way to - not just contradict it, but effectively demonize the matter. This realization is moving me to change to my approach.
Good job, Faithful!
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Gypsy Sam
They didn't open or close with a prayer??
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jookbeard
perhaps a pointer to nexts weeks arrangment should begin with please dont under any circumstances patronize or use a condescending manor! any other phrases like the "kindergarten" one and I'll call this whole arrangment off. Also I think its vitally important not to let these 2 ladies get any "upper hand" in your interactions with them, tell them I will not be opening JWOrg as I dont have internet coverage(flick the router off) and I would prefer the discussion to be bible based so please dont offer and show me WT publications, this reduces the patronizing effect and leaves you with the upperhand still, better still inform them that you really have a vast knowledge of WT publications printed over the years.
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Terry
The divine name was edited out of the scriptures about 250 years before Jesus' birth. The Jews were very superstitious and didn't believe it should ever be uttered out loud.
I've had many a conversation with Rabbis about this. Not a single Rabbi I've spoken to would agree any "superstition" was involved.
What reason is given? It was one of the commandments: "Do not take the name of the Lord, your God in vain."
For example, what if you worked for UPS as a delivery driver and you wore a uniform with UPS on your shirt and you went
around saying things about the company that were not true. The people who heard your words would RIGHTLY accept what you told them because
you had the NAME of the company on your shirt and your truck.
Jehovah's Witnesses have represented prophetic UNtruths in the same way. When Rutherford admitted "I made an ass of myself" in 1925 after nine years of advertising the return of the dead--he was such a narcissist he didn't give consideration to the fact he made an ass OUT OF JEHOVAH too.
In 1975 after nine years and 11 million Truth Book sales pointing to 1975--the same thing happened!
It was JEHOVAH who was made an ass of. By who? By the people walking around using HIS NAME IN VAIN.
So, in view of all that--the Rabbis told me THEY REFUSED to take the name of YHWH in vain by speaking in His Name. It was too risky for
imperfect men to bring reproach.
I ask you---who is more reverent of the holy name, the one who refuses to bring shame--or---the one who attaches it to every damned
crazy idea that comes into their mind??