My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Faithful Witness

  Apognophos: There is a desk at the rear of the KH that we attended. A man sits at that desk throughout the entire meeting. It took me a long time to really notice it, as I was always so worried about keeping my babies still and quiet. I had to leave and spend many meetings in the mother's room, nursing and soothing my baby. One day, as I was returning to my seat, I actually looked over at this desk in the corner.

  There were between 4-6 tv screens, with black and white video images. I didn't really examine it, but I could see the parking lot and the hallway clearly. It has been a long time since I've been there now, but the images may have been switching views on each screen.

  Regarding the bathroom monitoring:

  Stress causes some digestive issues for my husband at times. There was one particular time, when I guess he was feeling pretty sick. He went to the restroom, and while he was in there, the elder who was also our BS conductor, came into the men's room and called his name. He said something to the effect of, "Chuck, you're missing the talk! You've been in here a long time." (Not a question about his welfare, but an admonition that he was taking too long on the toilet... my husband is a military veteran, former Army sargeant, and he doesn't take bullying-type behavior).

  Mind you, this elder was the same 77 year old man, who waited until he was alone with my husband during one of our BS sessions (I was putting kids to bed). He attempted to "get tough" with my husband... "Are you going to start making progress here, or are you going to let your family be sentenced to destruction at Armageddon?"

  Also the same man who threw a little tantrum, when we dared to show him a video of some former JW's, speaking on a panel for a Christian talk show. The man who always had ALL the answers, freaked out on us when we asked him to defend his beliefs. "They're apostates! They're fornicators! They're idolators! Apostates!" His reaction to our sincere question, was enough to cause our "progress" to come to a screeching halt. Game over, when we finally figured out that he had been lying to us the whole time. He flat-out denied that anyone ever believed in the 1975 predictions that the apostates are lying about today.

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  Thank you all again for reading my posts about these experiences, and I do think that this week will most likely be my last session with these ladies. Unless they can be more respectful to me, I don't see why I should continue to study with them. I have no intention of ever becoming a JW, and I know that cultBgone is correct. They are not doing me any good, but really just wasting my time, as I spin my wheels.

  I do have compassion for them, and do care about their welfare, but their claims that JW's are teaching the truth, are falling flat. Miss K starts her presentation by telling me that the bible is true, then tells me things that (that are "true,) but that aren't in the bible, but tells me that they are not in the bible because there are errors or omissions in the bible, so the JW's had to insert the name of Jehovah 237 times in the New Testament?

  The lies and insults can be saved for someone else. I don't know what I am going to say yet, but I realize that I do have to get myself out of this situation, after reading my own description of what is happening here. When she confirms our appointment, I am going to make sure and tell her that I need to keep it to less than 90 minutes this time. I need to grow a backbone, between now and next Friday. I really am not sure why I agreed to let Miss K into my home, but now that I see how it is going to go, I have changed my mind.

  JW's are worthy of outreach, and people who are wishing they could leave, or have their doubts about the organization they serve, should have the freedom to leave without punishment. I have shown these ladies, in the best and only way I am capable of at this time, that they are not teaching the truth at all. They are following an organization, agreeing to believe whatever they are told, whether it is truth or not.

  I think I just need to be firm and honest with them. My time and my own sanity have more value than this. I almost wish that I didn't have to wait a week for her to come back, so I can get this over with. I'm guessing that the length of time between BS sessions, is all part of the process. They don't want to come back while you are still "hot." They wait until you cool off and allow it all to start over again. The day AFTER the BS session, is the most full of awareness of what just happened, at least for me.
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  Phizzy

  Dear FW, thank you for posting your experiences here, they are most revealing as to the shady "reasoning" and methods used by JW's in the process of entrapment (conversion).

  I do think that you will be far more satisfied if your last meeting with them, whenever that is, is the one that you really take control of. The best way to do this is to not mention any of your feelings, they will latch on to these as the reason for your ending the discussions, and will belittle you for it.

  The best way is to leave them with a question for which they have no reply, such as "Until you can prove to me by visible and testable evidence that there is a God of Love, we have nothing more to discuss".

  Posed that way, the question precludes their using (mis-using) the Bible to reply, don't let them waffle on about what it says, you know what it says, and it provides no answer as demanded by your question.

  They will not return to bother you, and they will be forced to think about this issue.
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  Ocean1111

  If "the light keeps getting brighter" it can also start growing darker. A question I had was how come there hasn't been any "light" whatsoever other than controversial minutia?

  And if I can find one JW who can explain Daniel 8:11-14, I will give them 1000 dollars.

  The trick with the Bethel racket is to pervert the meaning of the Word in new directions, and one of those is to introduce scandal and doubt. I have noticed over the years a large sector of "opposition" is no longer about theology, but Bethel's actual criminal record. People discuss their unaccounted rap sheet of sandal, org idolatries and hypocrisy by policy more than the old school Bible debates.

  It just shows the trend since people actually started to read Ray Franz' COC was problems with the racket being detected, exposed and understood to be contrary to basic ethics not to mention the Bible. Shoot, they were disloyal to their own "godfather" (Rutheford/Knorr) at Bethel, not even mafia, hell's anegls and juggalos have such basic disrespect for their own family, the basic "code of honor" is pure bs at Bethel, even to loyalty among themselves but only to their own name and position, that is what the "Governing Body" is, about ITSELF and it's own fame, glory and riches NOW.

  They epitomize all the worst element of the principle of "lifting themselves over everyone" in brazen almost comical and surreal fashion, now they alone are the billionaire self-appointed and self approved "faithful and discreet slave", they even disrespect their claimant "anointed" family. What they are is the latest harlots, apostasy and lawless ones, nothing more, nothing less. Even their publications are laced with elitist terminology and plugged publications.

  I guess it is a case of hidden in plain sight and the lie is just too big to see or accept. So you may have to stick with your basic reasoning, this thing developed too gradually, even older JWs were in like elementary school when the dictators seized the corporation way back in 1976. So the "GB" has been the backdrop JWs are conditioned to accept just like the Pope, but in a collective "body", a neo-Vatican Bethel neo-papacy. In effect Jehovah's witnesses have all the general "Christendom" features of hierarchy, coercion, "divine council", org idol, scandal and the wrap sheet that goes with it.

  I guess it will just have to go down in some bigger fashio before JWs are awoken by the icy waters.

  I guess if JWs think they have the truth, then they should know it is the truth God judges hypocrites in His own house. JWs should understand that much truth we may assume.
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  nugget

  The main issue you have is that she is incapable of of listening to an altrnative perspective.

  She refers to her belief as truth but offers no real evidence that it is true. She says her organisation is run by imperfect men but insists the material they produce is the ultimate explanation of what God wants.

  Outreach is a noble idea but the people have to acknowledge they need help and be able to reason.
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  Ocean1111

  If you want to keep the dialogue open state everything as questions. If they say where did you get this or that information, just say "it's in the book of Daniel, unless he was liying". Since none of them know Daniel or any classic JW Daniel "rules", they will not be able to respond, and will have no time to go and actually study their own current mythology. The standard response, rather than "I don't know", is "wait on Jehovah" which is really "wait on the Bethel GB mafia".

  A question I wish I could aks a JW, but they never come by, is "how is the Governing Body NOT "lifting themselves over everyone"???" - what is common sense? What is the truth? WHo on earth have they not ascended over? Who in heaven have they replaced as the JW collective mediator? Could it be???? CHRIST???

  As stated it is worse to be blnd while they say they are saying they are seeing. It is all a classic, unbelievable those "opening eyes" are about the blindest bats flapping around the place. But it is due to the blind leading the blind syndrome, the Bethel elites plainly SEE 4 or 5 billion in assets. I mean they just liquidated 1 billion in property assets in 4 years globally, maybe more, and JWs think that is normal. And JWs are so blind Bethel also now, in addition to that billion, also squeeze more blood money from the JW turnips and congregations like Bethel is going broke. Behind the scenes if this much can be gleaned from public records, they are LIQUIDATING the place, I bet in other investment another 2 billion is now "at the doors", as good as gone.

  It puzzles me how people cannot see what is coming on Bethel, from within Bethel. It seems society in general is gullible, and JWs are literally zombies who should have been made wise enough to see it on the spot due to "discernment". But alas, JWs are blinder than the worl in general. Really in many ways this is surreal. In hindsight many JWs will say "geeeez, how could we not see this coming????".

  The how is called BLINDNESS and connditioned gullibility. They trusted the central authority was actually from God, but they were actually from the world, they are the "wolves" they Bible speaks about, their sheepskin is perfect. The central authority at Bethel, as in the previous cases of such downfall, is the guiltiest party, they have to know what is going on for it to have reached this magnitude, especially the liquidation, it is beyond mere coincidence. They are masters of engineering blindness in the form of flase perceptions, expctations and purely human invented "divine authority". It's a case of fully falling asleep on The Watchtower.

  But enough of my rant, lol

  I have nothing aganist JW r/f, so I am being critical of their modern GB "Sanhedrin" and their "Synagogue" of money lovers, not so much the duped ones. I am just a little puzzled how JWs do not detect the bad moon rising and the many red flags. I guess faith in org, or faith in God and Christ is setting up to be the litmus test in what is coming upon JWs unable to let go of the org, and grab hold of Christ, God and the Bible. The "exchanged the truth for the lie" is very true in this Bethel play, it's now a shell game with no truth pea.
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  Apognophos

  Apognophos: There is a desk at the rear of the KH that we attended. [...] There were between 4-6 tv screens, with black and white video images. I didn't really examine it, but I could see the parking lot and the hallway clearly. It has been a long time since I've been there now, but the images may have been switching views on each screen.

  Wow, weird. Maybe that's done at Halls in high crime areas, but it's not something I've seen or heard of myself. Usually the cabinet at the back of the hall is just for the sound equipment.

  the elder who was also our BS conductor, came into the men's room and called his name. He said something to the effect of, "Chuck, you're missing the talk! You've been in here a long time."

  Ah, I see. That's definitely a weird intrusive thing to do, but being that he is an older man and was your BS conductor, it helps me understand the behavior. As you've experienced with these two sisters recently, there's a condescending attitude toward interested ones which causes them to treat you like children. Man, that would definitely tick me off if someone did that to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the elder has a reputation in the congregation as a hardline so-and-so.

  I am just a little puzzled how JWs do not detect the bad moon rising and the many red flags. I guess faith in org, or faith in God and Christ is setting up to be the litmus test in what is coming upon JWs unable to let go of the org, and grab hold of Christ, God and the Bible.

  My line of thinking recently about JWs is that they're less a religion and more a survivalist group. Survivalists are always looking for the next imminent end of the world, like my parents, who thought the end was coming in 1975. These particular survivalists are ones who trust an organization to get them through the end, and so they just want the org. to tell them what they need to do to be saved. Like most survivalists, they are more interested in preserving their lives than in satisfying a spiritual need.
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  Faithful Witness

  The KH that we attended is located in a rural area, a village where residents often don't even lock their doors. It was a surprise to see the video monitors, but I guess I just accepted it. I am often someone who gives people (undeserved) benefit of the doubt. After seeing the monitors, I did look and see the cameras in the hall and parking lot.
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  Bob_NC

  I have enjoyed reading this immensely. The rudeness and smug arrogance of Witnesses is so annoying. (You're in kindergarten and they are not.)

  Anyway, it seems that they leave unanswered questions at each visit. I suggest that for the next vist you be prepared to hammer them on the question they did not answer this time....what was required in the Bible in order to be baptized?

  The book of Acts will give you several verses to take them to so show that whole crowds were baptized immediately upon accepting the message of Jesus. What do JWs require beyond a confession of belief in Jesus? What verses show that something more is required before baptism. And have your pen and pad ready to take down the verses. The pen and pad are POWERFUL. Show them that you are serious about being given the verses for anything they say. Pen on pad to take it down. :)
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  JunkYardDog

  faithfull witness; I was asked to give you some advice a few months ago on these elderette's. But I don't see what your trying to get out of it! talk about kindergarden . I would have these dopes begging for their baby bottle In about 15 minutes. i'm sure they would need a diaper change within 30 minutes. I would drag them in the mud till they would say goo goo gaga. and crawl out the door. your waisting your time. you don't have the nerve for it. thinking your going to get your mother back , listening to these Zombies out talk you.. you need to control every sentence AND EVERY QUESTION AND ANSWER... OR THEY WILL CRAP ALL OVER YOU ... AS i HAVE READ IN YOUR POSTS ON THIS TOPIC. best of luck the dog
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  Faithful Witness

  I have been carefully considering my decision, about whether to continue following the suggestion of Miss K: "Take another look at the Bible from a fresh perspective."

  Her claims that JW's are the only ones teaching the truth about the Bible are failing the test, when we try to find proof of her claims in the Bible.

  I will meet with her again on Friday, but this time I will set more clear boundaries. I have to limit the time to a maximum of 90 minutes, but 60 would be more reasonable. I will have the chance to actually ask my questions, and to finish my sentences. I will not be called names, interrupted or taunted with obscure questions.

  I have sincere concerns and questions about what it really means to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Per her advice, I will ask a JW. Since she is the first JW to actually be brave enough to come to the kitchen table, I have given her some deference.

  Now that I see how she wants to operate, and groom me for indoctrination, I will get my turn to talk. We can continue our dialog, if it is a 2-way conversation. If she can't work with me in a more agreeable and courteous manner, I will not have time for her every week. It's that simple.

  I hope I can get things on track, without scaring her away. I would love to see if she can answer any of my questions truthfully... so far, I have not received any answers (from the Bible).

  I will take more notes this time, and if she tries to stop me, I will gently ask her if she is here to answer my questions...