Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father? (page 18)

designs

"If you believe the Bible is the word of God then you have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is YHWH". This is where you overstep history and logic. The Jewish Bible does not support Jesus in any fashion. Only the NT makes stabs at Jesus Divinity. It took centuries for the various Bishops to make a working model of what they wanted and even then the Eastern Orthodox and Western Churches disagree- ie the Filioque for instance.

cofty

All of them.

I am not denying that worship is rendered to Jesus in the bible - this is particularly clear in Revelation. Please see the following thread for an article I wrote concerning the NT understanding of Jesus - Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church...

Why do you need evidence of this? You already agree with it.

Parts of the bible can be used to support parts of the trinity doctrine. Other parts of the bible directly contradict the trinity - the parts you refuse to deal with. The bible is a mish-mash of conflicting superstitious beliefs.

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; - Rev 3:12

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ - 1Peter 1:3

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ - 2Cor 1:3

Your mistake is to pretend the bible is consistent on christology - it is far from it.

Your basic error is to imagine that the bible presents a consitent christology. It does not. There is an evolution of doctrine regarding Jesus from Mark, the earliest gospel, through the synoptics, the epistles and then John and Revelation.

Compare the christology of Mark with that of John. You have read the book haven't you?

Showing that Jesus came to be identified with YHWH in the minds of later writers is not the same thing as the trinity.

This is a truism

The trinity doctrine is an attempt by the early church to justify worshipping Jesus while pretending to hold on to monotheism.
The deification of Jesus was a gradual process that we can see within the gospels and NT letters. It clearly was a problem for a religion based in monotheism. The trinity was an attempt to square the circle.
Monotheism is foundational to Judaism - but - christians found themsleves worshipping and adoring Jesus in practice. They coopted an esoteric Greek notion to try to square the circle.

OT Jews were very strictly monotheistic. The Shema is " "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one". Christianity started as a Jewish sect. Somehow monotheistic Jews ended up worshipping Jesus. This needed to be explained. Trinity was the solution but it was arrived at over centuries and piecemeal. What part of this isn't self-evident?

The trinity doctrine is not in the bible. It is a later development

Show me a clear explanation of the developed doctrine of the trinity in the bible. Jesus never bothered to mention it. Somehow the church got from there to the creed.

factfinder

The Op was a good question but booker 2 has not commented. Has he even read these posts?

transhuman68

booker 2 has not commented.

Maybe he is waiting for page 20 or 30 before he comments. Heh, these Trinity threads always go on forever!

John Shelby Spong wrote that Paul and Mark- the earliest writers of the Greek Scriptures- wouldn't have known what to do with the Trinity: it would have been an unthinkable concept to them. Many beliefs were added to the Christian faith over time- it doesn't make them wrong; but it doesn't make them real either, lol!

sarahsmile

Jonza "What is funny is that none of you accept the trinity simply because you cannot understand it. It does not make sense to you. Yet the Bible clearly supports the concept. Just because you cannot understand God does not mean He does not exist a certain way. Either Jesus is God and there is only one God, or the Bible is false. Simple as that."

John 1:1 there are two. The Word was with God.

Maybe God YHWH declared later Jesus as God as Hebrew 1

The Spirit of God, is that the same as the Word was with God? I do not think so.

Other churches makes some good points on what the Spirit can do,however they lack on the Holy Spirit part of Trinity.

Anyhow there is something unique in The Spirit, so I can no longer play it down like the Wt to just air or wind.

If people received Holy Spirit third person of Trinity GOD,and it dwells in us we would be a god. joke! We should all be gods like Thor but with different hammers.:-)

Obvious it just a matter of what everyone believes or not.

designs

Don't tease Thor...

galaxie

Seemingly he hung his ' hammer' from his neck on his chest commonly known as the THORAX !!

factfinder

I have Captain Action in the Thor uniform! He is not a trinity! lol!

sarahsmile

Jonza,"factfinder: So you believe Jesus is just a Mighty God? not Almighty? So you believe Almighty is greater than just Mighty?"

I think he means that the Messiah would be called a Mighty God. Never was he referred to as Almighty.

He would have mighty powers for example perform miracles, but he would was not called Almighty God who would have complete power; omnipotent ability to perform everything. Not just one miracle at a time but thousands which Jesus will learn.

Earnest

I have always found it difficult to understand the trinitarian belief that Jesus is/was fully God and fully man. Indeed, trinitarians themselves could not agree whether he had one nature or two. Nor could they agree whether the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father only or both the Father and the Son. In fact just about every Church Father was declared heretical and/or anathema by a later Council.

But what caught my attention in the current thread was that not only was Jesus fully God and fully man when he was on earth, but that he is still fully God and fully man. I am unclear whether this is "orthodox" belief but would appreciate clarification. Is the belief that the human Jesus is now in heaven? Does he still need to eat and breath? Is he affected by cold and heat as humans are? It seems such an extraordinary claim I think I must have misunderstood and would appreciate any constructive thoughts on this.

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

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