Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t 199 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  jonza

  When I said components I was not meaning each being only part God, but each component being fully God. That is not Partialism. It probably was not the best word to use, due to you using it to try to twist my meaning. But it is how I was taught it as a child. As you can see from my previous post what I believe:

  it is made up of three individual persons.

  The same is true of you twisting my meaning of the time example. It was not modalism, where God reveals Himself in different modes. I said:

  I've heard it also described like time, past present and future, but all are of the same substance and same in nature, but each unque.

  That is not God showing Himself in different modes. It is simply an illustration to attempt our tiny brains to understand God in an extremely limited way.
• 

  jonza

  • Jesus is Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6
  • Jesus is the I AM - John 8:58
  • God is the I AM - Exodus 3:14
  • Jesus is the First and the Last - Revelation 22:13
  • God is the First and the Last - Isaiah 44:6
  • Jesus is the Alpha and Omega - Revelation 22:13
  • God is the Alpha and Omega - Revelation 1:8
  • There is no god before or after God - Isaiah 43:10
  • There is only one true God - John 17:3
  • There is only one creator - Isaiah 44:24
  • God alone was creator- Isaiah 44:24
  • Jesus is creator - Colossians 1:16-17

  How can you explain that Jesus is not God based on the above?
• 

  designs

  The passages in Isaiah have nothing to do with Jesus of the Gospels, ask a Rabbi. The NT writers can make up whatever beliefs they want but it has nothing to do with Judaism.
• 

  Chalam

  factfinder, you have missed this.

  Philippians 2:5-7

  English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

  5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  designs

  Oh you mean Prometheus
• 

  Band on the Run

  Time and time again I've heard Trinitarians admit that it is not Bible based. It is an extrapolition from scripture. The Witness view is also an extrapolitan. They can't back up their belief with scriptures. Tradition and how we handle it becomes important. Looking back now, I can't believe how I did not catch all the Trinitarians hints in the Bible. I would not stake my life on either doctrine. Why can't we admit that we don't much.

  I am reading Bart Ehrman's new book on how Jesus, a human, became God. It is a slow read. Mark and Matthew support a human Jesus. John makes Jesus God. So far I've found that Judaism embraced angels, the Logos, kings of Israel, as divine.
• 

  cofty

  Jonza - You keep repeating that I have ignored your questions.

  I am going to copy-paste my words from earlier in the thread to show that this is not the case. There is not a single original word in what follows below the line. I have answered your question thoroughly - you are just ignoring the bits that don't suit you.

  Your question is ...

  "How can you explain that Jesus is not God based on the above?"

  ---

  • I am not denying that worship is rendered to Jesus in the bible - this is particularly clear in Revelation. Please see the following thread for an article I wrote concerning the NT understanding of Jesus - Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church...
  • Parts of the bible can be used to support parts of the trinity doctrine. Other parts of the bible directly contradict the trinity - the parts you refuse to deal with. The bible is a mish-mash of conflicting superstitious beliefs.
  • Your mistake is to pretend the bible is consistent on christology - it is far from it.
  • Your basic error is to imagine that the bible presents a consitent christology. It does not. There is an evolution of doctrine regarding Jesus from Mark, the earliest gospel, through the synoptics, the epistles and then John and Revelation.
  • Showing that Jesus came to be identified with YHWH in the minds of later writers is not the same thing as the trinity.
  • The trinity doctrine is an attempt by the early church to justify worshipping Jesus while pretending to hold on to monotheism.
  • The deification of Jesus was a gradual process that we can see within the gospels and NT letters. It clearly was a problem for a religion based in monotheism. The trinity was an attempt to square the circle.
  • Monotheism is foundational to Judaism - but - christians found themsleves worshipping and adoring Jesus in practice. They coopted an esoteric Greek notion to try to square the circle.
  • The trinity doctrine is not in the bible. It is a later development that forced back into the text

  ---
• 

  Podobear

  Factfinder!: Spot on answer. The Trinitarian arguments spin on about a dozen scriptures... poorly transliterated and adulterated by unscrupulous Scribes of the "Established" church. It is pure heresy!

  The ONLY scripture I have locked horns with in tireless hours of trying to reason with such people is found in: John 20:28

  Is the Exclamation of Thomas in the Nominative or the Vocative???

  Apart from this one Scripture and the poor transliteration into English of the other Scriptures... the overwhelming evidence shows a Jesus, as the first born or pre-eminent one of Creation... who, was subject to his Father prior to his Earthly existence, during his Earthly existence, and after his resurrection.

  It really is quite simple.... Trinitarians have blinded the Faithful for centuries with a Doctrine that is the equivalent of "The King in his All Together"... it's a Mystery they lamely proclaim.

  Nonsense! Jesus is the Son of God, to the Glory of God the Father. Christians are one in union with him, as they and he are with our Heavenly Father!

  Crystal Clear!
• 

  cofty

  Jesus is the Son of God, to the Glory of God the Father

  Actually he is a dead former carpenter but that's another thread.
• 

  factfinder

  jonza- I believe Jehovah is the one and only Almighty God, he has no equals.

  In the Hebrew Scriptures Moses was refered to as god as was Paul in the Christian Scriptures. This does not make them Jehovah, does it?

  Christians apply parts of the Hebrew scriptures to Jesus wheras the Hebrew scriptures never mention Jesus.

  Almighty God is above a mighty god yes, mighty is not Almighty!

  As Designs brought out, Judaism does not assign parts of the Hebrew scriptures to Jesus. Christians do.

  Chalam, yes I am familiar with that scripture-remember, witnesses use it! Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, Jesus did not think he was equal to God nor did he think it proper for him to try to be equal with God. And this does not prove the trinity!

  As cofty brings out-the trinity doctrine is not taught in the Bible, Jesus' Jewish followers did not believe in a trinity, it was taken from pagan religions in the third century to try to unite Constantine's subjects and Constantine was a pagan.

  Worship of the trinity is not monotheism. This is why "Christianity" is not acceptible to people who believe in Judaism. The trinity is a pagan doctrine.