by cofty 108 Replies latest social current
I agree apognophos. Imo it is fear mongering recycled from religion - ie gog of magog/satan and his hordes everywhere spreading like water, seeping in stealthily. Zygmunt Bauman, who himself was a victim of Hitler's fear mongering, describes this fear very well in his book Liquid Fear.
I have a modern somali family living in my block. Yes they are muslims but they are people who fill me with confidence in the younger generation of muslims.
Been very busy so haven't read the whole thread, just came in at the comment where Canadian Muslim women aren't allowed to divorce... not sur where this comes from, as I know several Muslim women who have divorced their husbands, and this is in a developing country.
I think the basic issue is, just as in Christianity,there are as many different versions of Islam as there are people....
her solution is for Islam to be crushed entirely - Ruby
Please provide a direct quotation in context for this assertion.
I simply have not had the heart to take her ultra right wing views to task - Ruby
What is "right wing" about her views on Islam?
I’m a liberal by nearly every measure. Give me a list of liberal values and prejudices, and I will check almost every box. - Sam Harris
So will I. - Hirsi Ali
Can anybody point out a single thing Hirsi Ali has ever said that could even be considered controversial let alone "ultra right wing?
It seemed to me that people were saying "the Muslims are gonna take over". Maybe I misunderstood the point of the thread.
Yes I'm afraid you missed the point.
It is about an interview with a female Muslim apostate...
Being shunned is bad but at least we don't have to go around with an armed guard.
just came in at the comment where Canadian Muslim women aren't allowed to divorce... not sur where this comes from, as I know several Muslim women who have divorced their husbands, and this is in a developing country.
This is a misquote. There is an URL to a NFB documentary about the topic, if you wish the facts, in one of my earlier comments.
I stated that it 'almost' happened, and backed it up with valid sources. Please do not misquote me.
With thanks,
EDIT: To add, you may not have been aware at the time, if you were in the cult. This happened in the early 2000s, so I think the URL is on page two, check it out! Some strange stuff has been going on in Canada lately, and I for one, don't like it! :))
Apog,
Thanks for your gracious reply. I fear that we are still not 'meeting minds' ... as a Canadian, I am outraged that these fringe lunatics think they can buy their way out of our legal system. Yes, these Muslim women mean a lot to me. Fifty or sixy years ago, I could have been beaten and raped by my husband, legally, but people fought to make new laws. All Canadian citizens are supposed to have equal rights. Muslim women are not excluded from the Charter of Rights.
It's stunning to realize that my government was actually considering handing these women over to their masters, so to speak.
If this was happening in your country, don't you think it would raise a few eyebrows? That's all.
Thanks,
t
Irshad Manji
(I am a big fan, for years, look her up!)
I fear that, as with all religion, change will be neither swift nor painless for Islam.
Among the questions Manji asks are: What prevents young Muslims, even in the West, from going public with their need for religious interpretation? What scares non-Muslims about openly supporting liberal voices within Islam? How did we get into the mess of tolerating customs, such as honor killings, and how do we find our way out? How can people abandon dogma while keeping faith?
Allah, Liberty and Love has been endorsed by Muslims such as Time Magazine's Fareed Zakaria and Keith Ellison, the first Muslim elected to the U.S Congress. However the book has also generated criticism for skimming the surface of reform.
Omar Sultan Haque, a postdoctoral fellow at Harvard in Psychology, argues that although Manji's book is important in raising consciousness, it "fails to grapple with some of the more substantial questions that would make [a liberal and open] future [of Islamic Interpretation] a reality." [45] He declares Manji's solutions "much too glossy and slick" [45] as they do not "allow one to see places of ambiguity in factual and ethical claims within the liberal Islamic tradition that need further attention." [45] Haque further asserts that many of Manji's solutions suggest that the Koran is all one needs to practice Islam, and that traditional law and commentary are "optional and accidental." [45] Similarly, Rayyan Al-Shawaf, a Beirut-based writer, argues that Manji promotes ijtihad while overlooking that "ijtihad is a sword that cuts both ways." [46] He also laments Manji's focus "on how liberal Muslims could reinterpret the Koran as opposed to how they might set legal limits on its socio-politico-economic influence." [46]
Controversy surrounded the international launch of "Allah, Liberty and Love". During her world tour, police cut short her talk in Jakarta due to pressure from one of Indonesia's fundamentalist groups, the Islamic Defenders Front. [47] A few days later, hundreds of men from the Indonesian Mujahedeen Council assaulted Manji's team and supporters in Yogyakarta. Dozens were beaten and many had to be treated in hospital. [48]
Shortly afterwards, the government of Malaysia banned "Allah, Liberty and Love". [49] But in September 2013, a High Court in Kuala Lumpur struck down the ban. [50]
<bold is mine>
:'(
tal
^^^ above ref is wiki
as a Canadian, I am outraged that these fringe lunatics think they can buy their way out of our legal system. [...] All Canadian citizens are supposed to have equal rights. Muslim women are not excluded from the Charter of Rights.
If this was happening in your country, don't you think it would raise a few eyebrows? That's all.
I agree, it is troubling to see attempts to bypass the rights that people should have as citizens. In fact, it's been pointed out that here in the U.S., there are some Hasidic communities which are possibly doing just this, such as Kiryas Joel, near the new WT HQ in Warwick.
I'm posting some links to peer-reviewed journal articles for those who are interested in unbiased, academic information. I was privileged to learn Islamic Law from one of the premier experts, but he tries to make his articles available for free.
Clark Lombardi bio:
http://www.law.washington.edu/Directory/Profile.aspx?ID=142&vw=bio
Professor Lombardi joined the UW law school faculty in 2004. A specialist in Islamic law and in constitutional law, he teaches in these areas and also teaches courses in federalism, comparative law, and development law. Professor Lombardi's current research and writing have focused on the evolution of Islamic law in contemporary legal systems. He also focuses on comparative judicial institutions and on the way that constitutional systems deal with religious organizations and religious law.
Professor Lombardi has a Ph.D. in Religion from Columbia University where he focused on Islamic law. At Columbia Law School in 1998 he was a James Kent Scholar and editor-in-chief of the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law . From 1999-2000, he clerked for Judge Samuel A. Alito, then on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. He practiced law with the firm of Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton in New York City, where he specialized in representing sovereigns and in complex transnational commercial matters, often with sovereign participation.
Professor Lombardi has lived, worked or studied in Indonesia, Yemen, Egypt, and Afghanistan. He has taught courses on Islamic law at Columbia Law School and the NYU Department of Middle East Studies. He has spoken at the Council on Foreign Relations and numerous academic forums. He has been involved in projects advising on constitutional or legal reform in the Muslim world, including Iraq and Afghanistan. In recognition of his work, he was named a Carnegie Scholar for 2006-08, which allowed him to expand his research into Islamic law and constitutionalism in the modern world.
Papers
Clark B. Lombardi & R. Michael Feener, Why Study Islamic Professionals?, 21 Pac. Rim L. & Pol'y J . 1-12 (2012). [Excellent explanation of sharia and how it is interpreted.]
Clark B. Lombardi & Nathan J. Brown, Do Constitutions Requiring Adherence to Shari`a Threaten Human Rights? How Egypt's Constitutional Court Reconciles Islamic Law with the Liberal Rule of Law, 21 Am. U. Int'l L. Rev. 379-435 (2006).
Clark B. Lombardi, Designing Islamic Constitutions: Past Trends and Options for a Democratic Future, 11 Int'l J. Const. L . 615-45 (2013).
cofty please see here for Hirsi Ali saying she wants to see Islam crushed. the entire article is worth reading but I have only copy pasted what you asked for.
When asked, “Do you see eye to eye with high-profile AEI hawks such as former Bush speechwriter David Frum and former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton?” she replied, “Most of the time I do. For instance, I completely and utterly agree with John Bolton that talking to Iran is a sheer waste of time.”
The following exchange was particularly revealing:
Q: Do you think Islam could bring about [desirable] social and political changes?
A: Only if Islam is defeated.
Q: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
A: No. Islam, period.
Q: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
A: I think that we are at war with Islam..you crush your enemy.
Q: Militarily?
A: In all forms.
Q: Are we really heading toward anything so ominous?
A: I think that’s where we’re heading.
Asked to respond to the comment that “we are not at war with Islam,” she offered, without answering directly, “There is no moderate Islam.”
Q: So when even..Daniel Pipes says, “Radical Islam is the problem, but moderate Islam is the solution,” he’s wrong?
A: He’s wrong. Sorry about that.
...
Now, after a year in the United States, when she appears to favor “war against Islam” unconditionally, readers may ask what she might actually mean by this. In further refusing to acknowledge the existence of such an entity as “moderate Islam” and thereby positioning herself to the right of right-wing author Daniel Pipes, who has far better knowledge of the history of Islam, she ends up in a tiny minority of ultra-right, anti-Islamic commentators on these fundamental issues. Incidentally, these extreme conclusions go far beyond any of her published statements before her year with the American Enterprise Institute.
