by Doug Mason 37 Replies latest watchtower bible
Amelia and Vidqun,
Thanks for providing these renderings.
Daniel 8 and 9 are absolutely and solely focused on the ruined state of the temple at Jerusalem, so that is the only context of the "70 X 7" message from the messenger to Daniel. That is all that concerned him, and that is all that verses 24ff relate to.
Note carefully the breakdown of the 7 heptads and the 62 heptads.
Doug
Doug Mason - 7 heptads ? 62 heptads ? sixty two weeks ? seven and seventy ?
Numerology, Isopsephy, Gematria , Bible Code, Kabbalah, and your facination
with Theomatics - all meaningless.
This of course is refering to a time around 160s BCE ... important to know
I think who ever it was that wrote Daniel was also on the island of patmos and smoking the same stuff john who wrote revelations was smoking, good stuff.
HowTheBibleWasCreated,
Exactly correct. The book of Daniel relates to the state of the Temple at Jerusalem, which was under attack and profanity during the 2nd century BCE. The stories were written to strengthen the people at that time, using stories that had meaning to the Jews but slipped by their captors as meaningless fables.
Yes, what is a heptad? Who was the Anointed One who came after 7 heptads? Are the 7 heptads and 62 heptads continuous? All these questions - and more - cast serious doubt on these verses in Daniel having any reference to Jesus.
BTW. As an aside, no one knows how long Jesus' ministry lasted. A straight reading of the Synoptic Gospels indicates it lasted for several months, maybe up to a year, and was confined to an area around Galillee. Only John's Gospel has Jesus going to Jerusalem 3 times. Not that we know who wrote any of the Gospels, just that not one of the NT writers was personally acquainted with Jesus.
Doug
Thanks for the download. I need to look at this a little closer.
If Jesus did not fullfill Christ the Prince who do you say did?
Interesting read, I wonder about an anointing compared to Christ the Prince. My first thoughts were
Jesus fullfilled Christ the Prince but what about " Who was the Anointed One who came after 7 heptads?"
I need to reread this but did it say Anointed One or an anointing. :-)
Wish you could post these scriptures instead of download! It is hard on my arthritis fingers.
Very interesting topic. Anything with Daniels And Ezekiel I will read. Also what did the book of Jeremiah in MT and LXX say. Something Daniel looked up.
One more question Steve, did you read other books for your opinions or is this something you noticed by reading the bible?
Ezekiel is very very debated... Some say Ezekiel lived in the 6th centuery in Babylon.. ( I do to BUT...) Many wil note for every comment he makes is 3 or 4 commentaries... some might even relate to the Hellenists. Thus the COMPLETION of Ezekiel I place in the 200s
Hi Doug, with Paul Tanner, a conservative Christian Bible scholar, I believe Dan. 9 to be the bedrock of divine prophecy. As I told you, for me two things stand out:
One is the fate of the city under discussion. The city is identified as Jerusalem (v. 25). Concerning the city and the sanctuary, the prophecy says: “As for the city and the sanctuary, the people of the coming prince will destroy them” (Dan 9:26 NET). This cannot refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanus and his soldiers. This can only refer to the Roman siege of Jerusalem under Titus in 70 CE. This is how Jesus interpreted the prophecy (Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:10; Luk. 21:20-22). He rejected Maccabean interpretation. In fact, even the angel doomed a Maccabean uprising (Dan. 11:14).
Secondly is the phrase “to bring in everlasting righteousness” (Dan 9:24 ESV). This cannot be applied to the Jews or Antiochus IV. However, it fits that which Messianic rule would accomplish (cf. Is. 1:26; 2:1-4; 11:1-10; 32:1; 62:1, 2; etc.). These two instances modern scholars and skeptics fail to explain in a satisfactory way.
We do not know when the final form of the book saw the light. But I have a problem with the date 162 BCE. A few copies of Daniel appear amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated from 200 BCE. And the LXX was translated in the vicinity of 250 BCE. The first history of the Maccabees is dated 100 BCE. That would be a record time for a book to be incorporated in the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures and quoted as scripture. Michael B. Shepherd says the following: “On the other hand, there is nothing in the book itself that demands a date in the second century B.C., the consensus date among critical scholars. The assumption that the book must be a vaticinium ex eventu is not scholarship but dogmatism. Furthermore, such a purely historical view of the book rules out a priori any consideration of the eschatological elements of the book that have palyed a major role throughout the history of interpetation. The appearance at Qumran of eight incomplete manuscripts of Daniel dating from 125 B.C. to A.D 50 should be enough to think twice about the supposedly late date of the book.” See M. B. Shepherd, “Daniel in the Context of the Hebrew Bible,” pp. 64, 65.
Sarah,
Firstly, I say that Daniel 9 has no relevance to Jesus.
Some say that one person being referred to is Onias (search the www). But as you noted, there are two people being referred to in these verses. I do not offhand recall the name of the other High Priest who is suggested as the other person.
Remember that "Anointing" referred to the smearing of oil on the High Priest. The Hebrew word is Mesach (Messiah) the Greek is Christ. So the priest was the Anointed One (namely, the "Messiah" or the "Christ"). - Many will come in my name (authority) and say I am the Christ (the Anointed - think of the WTS's GB).
Before I proceed, let me give you another curly one to consider: why did Jesus speak of the "Son of Man" who is coming as being a person who was different from him? ("When the Son of Man comes he will ...". It is as if Jesus was intending to set himself up as "The King of the (imminent) Kingdom" that this Son of Man was about to instigate. The Romans said that he intended to make himself king of the Jews, (hence his triumphal ride into Jerusalem) which in the Romans' eyes was the height of insurrection.
I apologise for making it difficult for you, so here are the relevant verses that I put up:
Doug
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Daniel 9:24-27
Tanach, The Stone Edition (MT):
Daniel 9:24 Seventy septets have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets, and for sixty-two septets it will be rebuilt, street and moat, but in troubled times. 26 Then, after the sixty-two septets, the anointed one will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of the prince will come will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but his end will be [to be swept away as] in a flood. Then, until the end of the war, desolation is decreed. 27 He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet; but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal-offering, and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute [abomination].
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New JPS Translations (MT):
24”Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city until the measure of transgression is filled and that of sin complete, until iniquity is expiated, and eternal righteousness ushered in; and prophetic vision ratified, and the Holy of Holies anointed. 25You must know and understand: From the issuance of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the [time of the] anointed leader is seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, square and moat, but in a time of distress. 26And alter those sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will disappear and vanish. The army of a leader who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but its end will come through a flood. Desolation is decreed until the end of war. 27During one week he will make a firm covenant with many. For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the meal offering. At the corner [of the altar] will be an appalling abomination until the decreed destruction will be poured down upon the appalling thing.”
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The Septuagint (Brenton):
24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people and upon the holy city for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.
25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.
26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. 27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations ; and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.
Vidqun,
I respect your right to you having your views, and that you should express them. There is any amount of views on the www regarding Daniel, and chapter 9 in particular. Each of us here needs to weigh up all the evidences and make up their own mind. It is thus very important for each of us, myself especially, to read views that oppose mine. I despise the Governing Body's insistence on lock-step uniformity.
I put out my thoughts, which has shifted from thinking that Daniel was written in the 6th century BCE, and I now believe it was compiled in the 2nd century BCE. It is important to remain true to oneself and to be brave enough to change one's stance, regardless of how public it had been.
Daniel was not a prophet. The idea of a prophet is not that of a predictor but of one who speaks to God's people on his behalf. Daniel never did that. He only worked in the Babylonian court. He was obsessed with ritual purity and with the devastated state of the sanctuary at Jerusalem. Chapter 9 is totally and absolutely focused on that condition.
The letter referred to as coming from Jeremiah is doubtless that mention at Jeremiah 29.
It is possible that the 2nd century writers took the name from Ezekiel, although they distorted it, whether accidentally or deliberately. who can tell?
The fables (lion's den, praying to idols, etc) were myths used to strengthen the resolve of the 2nd century Jews.
The madness of Nebuchadnezzar was a distortion of the experience of Nabonidus; you will be aware of Nabonidus' history, especially with respect to his mother Adad-Guppi and her relevance to the changes in Babylonian worship she wished to introduce.
Doug
