Daniel chapter 9 (page 3)

Doug Mason

Oubliette,

Yes, I did have a point and the ensuing discussion has elicited it.

It is this: read Daniel 9 without the prejudice that it has any relevance to Jesus.

Dooug

ablebodiedman

One is the fate of the city under discussion. The city is identified as Jerusalem (v. 25). Concerning the city and the sanctuary, the prophecy says: “As for the city and the sanctuary, the people of the coming prince will destroy them” (Dan 9:26 NET).

The "coming prince" is Jesus Christ.

The people of the "coming prince" are Christians.

It is Christians who allow the "digusting thing" to enter the holy place. (Matthew Ch24)

The rebuilding of Jerusalem and its "holy place" began in the 1st Century, prior to 70ad (when the literal brick and mortar Jerusalem was destroyed.)

The Apostles confirm they were recently aware of this happening in the 1st Century:

Acts 15:13-18

　After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: "Men, brothers, hear me. 14 　Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 　And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 　‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 　in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 　known from of old.’

Yes, it is the Christian Temple that is destroyed by Christians!

The temple that Jesus Christ established with his shed blood.

Daniel 8:10-11

And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of HIS sanctuary was thrown down.

It is the "one thing" that Christians should have known.

Matthew 24:43

　"But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into.

people who are called by my name, says Jehovah ---- Jehovah's Witnesses

abe

ablebodiedman

What I have posted above should make every Jehovah's Witness tremble!

Try explaining it to them and they will hate you!

Isaiah 66:5

　Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: "YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame."

that are excluding YOU by reason of my name ---> [Name of person] is no longer a Jehovah's Witness

The city (Jerusalem) and its temple (holy place) will be destroyed:

Isaiah 66:6

There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.

abe

RichardHaley

mark

ablebodiedman

The temple that Jesus Christ established with his shed blood.

Daniel 8:10-11

And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of HIS sanctuary was thrown down.

Hebrews 10:19-22

Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 　which he inaugurated [established] for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 　and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 　let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water.

abe

Oubliette

Doug,

Thanks for responding. Now I get your point.

When I first started studying the Bible, before I became associated with JWs, I really enjoyed reading and analyzing scriptures trying to understand them and sense their meaning.

But I gotta' say, after my several decades experience of being a JW and having scriptural "interpretations" forced down my throat (so to speak) I have found that I am really turned off to the whole process.

I've concluded that the Bible is most certainly NOT the word of God. It is the delusional ramblings of a bunch of desert dwellers from the Iron Age. Frankly, it is not significantly different than the superstitious myths and legends of all the other cultures around the world.

While some of the "wisdom" of the Bible is valuable, it contains an overwhelming amount of really harmful ideas.

That being said, thanks for your good work regarding bible exegesis for those that still care about such things.

Oubliette

Doug Mason

Oubliette,

I see the Hebrew Scriptures as sophisticated religio-political that needs to be understood through the prism of the neo-Babylonian experience. The elite of Judea-Benjamin had been deported, the house of David ended so the powerful elite blamed the "others" for their parlous state: they had not been listening to the voices of the religious leaders (prophets) therefore God had punished them.

Always remember that writing as a means of communication was limited to a tiny percentage of the population and was distrusted by others, such as the powerful People of the Land. Thus we only are able to read the biased opinions of a small part of one side, those who wanted to see Jerusalem return to power, and this time without problems from the royal household.

So they wrote and rewrote their history: I presume you are aware of the hypothesis known as the Deuteronomic History, and the series of history books that ensued, starting with Deuteronomy. Another example is the way they incorporated their writings into the book (scroll) of Isaiah (chapter 40 on).

The later immense influence came during the Persian period, with the fanatical Ezra presumably being the driving force, where we see the merging of writings to create the Pentateuch into the form that we now have.

I see the NT writings as a Greco-diaspora Jewish document written by Paul and his adherents. Matthew, James and the Apocalypse being likely non-Pauline that come immediately to mind. Many see Christianity as a Pauline invention in opposition to the very legalistic position presented by the Jesus community, as promoted by the Jerusalem Church in opposition to Paul (of the diaspora).

I do not believe that it is possible for anyone to provide objective evidence that the Bible is the "Word of God", nor indeed to show that there is just one version of the Bible.

Doug

Doug Mason

ablebodiedman,

If you really think those verses show that Daniel 9 refers to Jesus of Nazareth, then do so.

Doug

Oubliette

Doug,

And so it seems that some of the writers of the scriptures actually believed what they wrote whereas others saw religion as a means to power and control.

Oubliette

Apognophos

How very timely this is. We just had a public talk today about why the Bible is trustworthy, and it covered all the old saws that we learned as JWs, such as the earth being a "sphere" (the speaker's word, not mine, but we know that the writer wrote "circle" because he imagined a disc), how the Bible writers recorded their own faults (except the example books he gave weren't really written by the people they're attributed to) and then touched on some prophecies. The prophecy that stood out for me was this very passage in Daniel.

Now, I no longer believe that the Bible has real prophecies in it, and I knew that "messiah" in the OT referred to the king, but I really wasn't sure how to respond to the statement that 69 weeks of years ran from the order to rebuild Jerusalem to Christ's appearance/death/etc. That seems pretty remarkable on the face of it. It occurred to me to wonder how accurate the Society's dates were, and you remarked that we don't actually know how long Jesus preached, so I guess that's one issue with the assertion that there were 490/483 years from the order to rebuild until Jesus' time.

It seems that this passage had something specific in mind which may be lost to antiquity, though maybe I'll find some decent theories if I do some reading on this.

Daniel chapter 9

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