Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue. (page 10)

TTATTelder

jgnat - I just saw that there are a lot of past threads about Ayn Rand.

That should be some interesting reading when I get a chance.

-TE

cofty

But faith, when applied in the appropriate setting, builds up people. In that setting, faith is a virtue. - jgnat

Interesting point. It reminds me of Marx' famous words...

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions. - Karl Marx - Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

Marx was not criticising religion as much as the painful conditions that made religious stories so appealing.

Those comforting stories would not be so efficacious if they were held by individuals rather than communities. My problem is that those communities forget that they are dealing in myths rather than realities.

jgnat

So in an idyllic society without any problems, people would not need to resort to religion?

I so disagree with Karl Marx on the purpose of religion. He was wrong about a few other things, too.

TTATElder, I suggest that our need for stories - repeated - is more than temporary entertainment. It does speak to something deep in our psyche, the tribe huddling around the campfire if you will, hearing the same stories of adventure and triumph again and again.

TTATTelder

Those comforting stories would not be so efficacious if they were held by individuals rather than communities. My problem is that those communities forget that they are dealing in myths rather than realities.- cofty

I was thinking the same thing when I was considering some of mrhhome's posts. It really is a multi-layered subject. If we were just talking about persons privately praying at home, that would be one thing.

When does religion ever stop there? LOL

It seems to go from the "stories" to "give me all your life resources" in about 30 seconds flat.

Also it's hard to seperate the subject matter from my anger toward WTBTS. I will definitely admit that.

-TE

cofty

So in an idyllic society without any problems, people would not need to resort to religion?

Even somebody who is enjoying a good life wants to know where they came from, why friends and family members have gone too soon and what will be their own fate.

We should be too curious to settle for religion's easy answers.

Karl Marx..was wrong about a few other things, too.

He certainly was.

jgnat

Maybe it's a good thing that an irredeemable cynic was wrong about how people interact on the macro scale. We're a much more complex and interrelated society than a simple division between aristocrat and proletariat.

I also believe that religion and faith offers more than simple answers to hard questions. Especially when it is at its best.

TTATTelder

I suggest that our need for stories - repeated - is more than temporary entertainment. It does speak to something deep in our psyche, the tribe huddling around the campfire if you will, hearing the same stories of adventure and triumph again and again.-jgnat

I agree with what you are saying.

I think you are speaking to the power of - and our need for - hope.

So a person's desire for "faith" in their life is most likely very tied to their need for hope.

Understandable.

I guess we all have to decide what is worth putting our hope in.

-TE

jgnat

TTATTelder, I am actually hinting at something more primal than our trot-out words; hope, faith, love.

We get visceral pleasure from gathering around and hearing a shared story. We don't get tired of being told the same story over and over again. For instance, Harry Potter is a retelling of the coming-of-age story. Somehow, we end up losing our valued mentor in the telling, and we are left to swim through life alone. Shakespeare was also a master of retelling these primal tales.

We don't tire of hearing a favorite song over again.

It's something fundamental in us, which may be why it escapes our notice. It feels completely natural. Because it is.

Whether the story is factual or not has nothing to do with its value for us.

cofty

Whether the story is factual or not has nothing to do with its value for us.

I agree with all of your previous post.

So why do the vast majority of religious people insist that their stories are actually true and that to doubt it is a vice?

mrhhome

Cofty

My problem is that those communities forget that they are dealing in myths rather than realities.

I think that an "intellectually honest" term would be speculation on the unknown rather than myths. Of course, the problem is not just limited to religion. You find much in the secular world that is labeled fact, which is not.

TATTelder

Also it's hard to seperate the subject matter from my anger toward WTBTS.

For what it is worth, I also have experience the same thing, and I was not even in the JW. I was just dealing with JW in-laws. I found myself asking a disturbing question. If they could twist and manipulate scripture this badly, what assurances do I have that I am not doing the same?

Steve2

What "works" for one culture - or for that matter one individual within a culture - dose not necessarily work for others.

Thanks for the tumbs up. Everyone has to figure out what they believe for themselves. Enforcing a belief system through emotional blackmail is obviously counterproductive on multiple fronts.

Having said that, Christianity can be boiled down to a couple of simple principles. (1) Putting our mistakes behind us, (2) Loving your neighbor, and (3) Self restraint. Which of those do not work in other cultures?

Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

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