The Trinity Is A False Doctrine!

by non_trias_theos 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  DakotaRed

  Can't you think outside the box for one moment? Can God only be in 1 place at a time? I thought He was omniscient, the All, the Absolute, the infinite wonder...Jesus can be where ever 2 or 3 are gathered in his name which in those days must have been quite a few places, why can't God be ?

  Apples and oranges, my friend. Jesus was stating that he would be them in spirit, just like others are still with us that have died long ago. Nowhere does scripture say that Jesus knows the name of each star or even if the smallest sparrow falls in the forest, does it?

  Why do you give this God human qualities? Is is because Jesus was a man? and all the fullness dwelled in him?

  If you would read the scriptures I quoted you, it is plainly obvious that Jesus had the fullness of deity simply because the Father placed it there.

  Is Jesus simply a man? The jury is still out on that one. I have looked into both claims about his having a prehuman existence and the claim that he didn’t. Currently, I am more inclined to believe he had a prehuman existence, but am researching some strong claims I have read, although I have not verified them yet.

  Or you think that God created man in his image so God must look like you. Do you think that your outward appearance, your vessel is all that there is to you? Wait, you are a WT defender so omit that last one.

  How typically Trinitarian of you. You cannot debate on an adult level, so you resort to insults. For your information, friend, I disassociated myself from the JWs over two years ago. One needs not to be a JW to disbelieve in the trinity. There are more groups out here that disbelieve it than there are JWs. Many within traditional Trinitarian religions also don’t accept it, but remain quiet. I know because I have spoken with a few. And, not one is a JW.
• 

  Will Power

  If you would read the scriptures I quoted you, it is plainly obvious that Jesus had the fullness of deity simply because the Father placed it there.

  Exactly, Father God is in control of everything, knows all, sees, all, causes all. Unfathomable that even a "supreme being" even exists! To be that awesome esp. when no one really knows what a spirit is, does, looks like. How do you begin to describe it?
  To have God's spirit, or is it Jesus' Spirit, in them, after having this unbelievable knowledge revealed to them by the Holy Spirit,the apostles had the enormous job of telling others.
  Some believed, some didn't. Some opened their heart and put on a new self - a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek, and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all and in all.

  If the Incarnation of Christ is true, it is not surprising that the human mind cannot totally understand it. Father=Glory

  I am sure you have thought of all these other philosophical explanations by the likes of Plato, Socrates...
  The univers is one and is composed of three basic elements - space, matter and time. Space is composed of three dimensions - length, breadth and height. Space is therefore 3 in 1. Matter itself is produced by the three-fold manifestation of energy, motion and phenomena. Time is one, yet 3 past, present and future. The human personality is one but involves the three-fold use of the will, intellect and affections. Man's body has three distinct systems in it - the nervous system, the circulatory system and digestive, yet these three distinct systems are each propelled by one life force. Gen. 1:27 Man is made in the image of God - Let us make man in our image - spirit, soul and body - 1 Thess. 5:23
  Surely a Creator is infinitely more complex than any of His creations.
  It could be sheer arrogance to reject something because you don't understand it.

  How typically Trinitarian of you. You cannot debate on an adult level, so you resort to insults.

  What do you mean insults? Obviously by your arguments you do not believe in the soul. It was not an insult, it was a recognition of WT doctrine. How can you believe or contemplate the discussion we are having if you do not believe that what Jesus showed us is possible.
  He did say something about how happy those would be that didn't see Him yet believed. You have already cut yourself off.
  The Lord be with your spirit...2Tim 22 - typical christian greeting.

  -He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion!Amen 1 Tim 6:15
  (Deut 10:17, Rev 17:14, 19:16, Ps 136:3)
  1 Tim 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen (another typical christian prayer)

  If a scientist declared his ice to be water would he be wrong?
  His collegue argues that his vapor is water.
  Neither could agree.
  The warm vapor melted the ice, they became one and a woman came by and drank it.
  "Tastes like water to me!"
• 

  FRUSR8TD

  dakotared wrote:

  [qote]"Trinitarian dogma is one of the great enigmas of our time. The fact that it defies both conventional logic and rational explanation does not seem to diminish the Trinitarians desire to protect at all costs his complex theological formula. We are puzzled at the agitation that is created when the Trinity is questioned. This seems to point to a lack of confidence in what is claimed to be the unquestionable party line of virtually all Christian ministers. The common branding of all objectors as unbelievers does nothing to reassure us." [/quote]

  now read it this way

  "Watchtower dogma is one of the great enigmas of our time. The fact that it defies both conventional logic and rational explanation does not seem to diminish the Watchtower's desire to protect at all costs there complex theological formula. We are puzzled at the agitation that is created when the Watchtower is questioned. This seems to point to a lack of confidence in what is claimed to be the unquestionable party line of virtually all Christian ministers. The common branding of all objectors as unbelievers does nothing to reassure us."

  Erie huh?
• 

  Will Power

  Nice observation FR

  You know what I don't get...
  Whether someone believes in the trinity or not is kind of 2ndary.
  Discussing the proofs for and against is where you expand your thinking ability. Abstract thinking is excellent exercise. Many new discoveries, inventions, etc come about this way.

  What I have a hard time with is ideas being dismissed because they make sense to only some and not everyone in the room. Good pros & cons both sides yet brick walls go up & topic must change or you find someone else to share & grow with.
• 

  DakotaRed

  Sorry, Frust8d, but ragging on the Watchtower has no affect on me as I am no longer involved with them. Like I have steadily manitained, their trinity brochure is sorely lacking in any real research.

  As to discussing things, Will, that is exactly what I am doing. I just happen not to believe in the trinity, now or ever. Whether or not that affects any hope of salvation, I leave up to God and his Son. But, not believing in the trinty is unpopular, especially in most religions today. I find sticking with doctrines mostly out of tradition to be very stale. Whether or not you or anyone else believes in the trinity is absolutely no threat to me. However, it is trinitarians that seem to get extremely upset and resort to name calling and condemning on to an eternity in hell when someone questions it or presents the other side. I have never understood that.
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  DakotaRed

  UnclePenn, I promised to share with you the reply I received from professor Buzzard concerning the Greek ho theos at the scripturers you mentioned. Below is his reply.

  "Thanks Lew. Heb 1:8 and John 20:28 have o theos (God) and o theos mou (my God). The point here is that these are not uses of o theos absolutely, ie without qualification. I have quoted from the massive study of Rahner who agrees with this.

  Of course is it absurd (as you see) to plead 2 verses against the thousands and thousands of pronouns making God One! But your friend should look at the study by Rahner. He may not understand the point without some language ability. But the vocative , O God, Heb 1:8) looks just like the regular O theos, but it is vocative.

  As to God with us, he is right o theos is used here. But it refers of course to the Father. God was IN Christ, Paul said. In Prov 30 someone called their son ithiel, which means "God is with me" But that person did not think the son WAS God!.

  Perhaps you friend would explain why not a single one of the thousands of occurrences of GOD in the Bible can be shown to mean the Triune God!"
• 

  FRUSR8TD

  Dakota'

  Ahh...but you see I was not raging on the WT. Simply pointing out the interesting fact that both sides are useing the same tacticts in the agument...just change a few nouns,for example:

  However, it is trinitarians that seem to get extremely upset and resort to name calling and condemning on to an eternity in hell when someone questions it or presents the other side. I have never understood that.

  
  now read it this way

  However, it is the Watchtower that seems to get extremely upset and resort to name calling and condemning on to an eternity in the common grave when someone questions it or presents the other side. I have never understood that.

  All I am pointing out is that both sides are saying the same exact thing when refering to eachother....it does not lend a lot of credibility to either side. How is anyone who is not informed on the issue supposed to make an honest opinion on the issue under those conditions.
• 

  DakotaRed

  How is anyone who is not informed on the issue supposed to make an honest opinion on the issue under those conditions.

  Likewise, FR, how does the WT expect any to acurately discuss the point when they use dishonest quotes as they do in the Trinity borchure?

  That is why I look for meatier substance than the WT offered and it is out there. Eventually, that and personal matters, led to my fleeing the Watchtower. Yet, I still find much support against the Trinity doctrine.

  Ultimately, though, I will leave it up to God as to whether or not it even matters. I just like expressing my views and hearing others, even if I disagree with them. I learn someting new all the time and with some research, understand and am able to refute or agree as needed. Lately, UnclePenn showed me where ho theos was actually applied to Jesus, however, it still does not prove a trinity. But, I am now more well informed as to it and have a desire to keep digging.

  It all keeps the old brain matter stirred up and working.
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  FRUSR8TD

  LOL....I agree....nothing like sticking the grey matter in a blender for a while!
• 

  Sangdigger

  Dakota,
  I respect the fact you are still "digging", obviously most of us have done a degree of research on this topic. Let me throw a few points at you on the subject.

  The book of Hebrews was obviously written to the Jews, who only believed in the "One true God". So the writer had to explain who Jesus was. The first chapter dispels any notion the he is/was an angel. So is he "a god" or God-manifest in the flesh?

  Ok, im a jew, reading Hebrews, and i read chapter one, just describing how the angels worship jesus, and how he is higher than the angels. Then i read in verse 8, the Father calling Jesus "God".
  And being a jew, i know absolutely there is only ONE GOD, so then i read on in verse 10-12. Wait!! Yaweh created the heavens and earth, and these two verses are a direct quote from Psalms 102:25-27. But here in Hebrews they are reffering to Jesus. Then i recall a scripture in Isaiah 44:24 that says I am the LORD that made the heavens and the earth ALL BY MYSELF. And another O.T scripture rapidly comes to mind, Isaiah 42:8,9 I am the LORD, and my glory will i not give to another. (incidentaly,verse 9 is repeated by Jesus in Jn.13:19. Another Isaiah scripture Isa.45:22,23 is repeated in Phillipians 2:10 Yaweh is saying at the sound of HIS NAME every knee will bow..ect... In Phill, it says at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow...ect...And as you might know, there are literally hundreds of paralells between old and new testament like will was quoting earlier.

  I think maybe part of the problem in understanding the concept of the Trinity, (at least it was for me-i was a 3rd generation JW, who did not believe the trinity doctrine for 33 years) was the language Jesus used when refering to his father as doing HIS will, and saying the father is greater..ect...But i think the relationship between the two is very similiar to husband and wife. Even though they are two different people, they are in a perfect union, therefore becomming "One flesh" The wife is in perfect submission to the husband, just as christ is in perfect submission to the father. He came to do "his fathers will". But like Phillipians 2:6 says, "he thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

  As far as explaining it, my favorite is the Husband/Wife thing.
  But the other day, i was thinking on the subject after reading some of the post, and i kind of thought of one. Jesus is called the Word. Therefore God is "Declared" by him. He is Yaweh in action. Just as my voice loudly declares what i believe and who i am. Without my voice, i could not tell anyone about me. Is my voice me? I should say absolutely. Even though it is invisible, it reflects who i am, and what im all about.

  "Holy,Holy,Holy is the LORD of Hosts"