The Trinity Is A False Doctrine!

by non_trias_theos 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    Dak
    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    Are YOU in very nature God? You are a humman. So by nature, because you were created in God's image, do you have his nature?

    Oh please, Will. Surely you cannot be getting that desparate? The NIV which states it as such also includes a footnote stating, "in the form of." All beings in heaven are "in the form of" are they not? Yet, no one declares any of them God, even though the Bible clearly uses the exact same words to describe them as they do Jesus.

    "The 'divinity' of Jesus is not diminished since 'he who has seen has seen the Father.'(John 14:9) But it is 'divinity' in a sense other than that expressed by Trinitarian orthodoxy. For the divinity is God's activity working in and through a perfectly surrendered human person. Jesus, on this reading, is not God in the Trinitarian sense, but a human person fully expressing God, His agent for the reconciliation of the world. The wonderful thing that God has done will then be seen in terms of the glorification of a perfectly obedient human person who was genuinely tempted as we are. This portrait will harmonize with the Synoptic view of Jesus. Above all, it avoids a presentation of Jesus as a rather less than fully human being who from eternity was himself God. The truth will then emerge that Jesus was 'in the form of God' (Phil. 2:6), not that he was God. 'God was in Christ' (2 Cor. 5:19), but Christ was not God." The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, Professor ANthoiny Buzzard and Charles Hunting, 1998, page 250.
  • Sangdigger
    Sangdigger

    plm,
    I see where your comming from, we obviously dont know what else is out there if anything, besides our known universe and Gods heavenly realm. And yet looking at it as you suggest from a finite point of view, this would still include Jesus. Of course im bringing this up because of JW doctrine pounding home the fact that Jesus was Gods first creation. So tackling the subject of Jesus being "created" i think this is fairly solid. In other words, God couldnt have made Jesus, because ALL things that were made, were made by Jesus. Unless the Father did bring him forth, sometime in eternity past, and that does not count as making him. (The vines notes on the deity of christ actually suggest Jesus as possibly having derived his existance from the father at some point in time.)

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    "Some writers who promote the idea that the New Testament calls Jesus God in the same sense as his Father tell us that 1 John 5:20 definitely says that Jesus is the true God..."

    "Many Trinitarians do not think that Jesus is here described as the true God. Henry Alford, the distinguished British expositor and author of the famous commentary on the Greek Testament, refers to a tendency which has played a major role historically in the interpretation of the Bible. He remarks that the Fathers interpreted in 1 John 5:20 doctrinally rather than exegetically. In plain words they were influenced more by a desire to defend their already established theological position than a determination to give the actual meaning of the text."

    "Alford compares John's statement about the one God in 1 John 5:20 with the structure of similar sentences in the epistles of John. He also notes the obvious parallel in John 17:3, where Jesus is carefully distinguished form the one God. He concludes that expositors seeking the plain sense of this passage will not see the phrase "true God" as a reference to Jesus but to the Father. This (houtos) in the last sentence of 1 John 5:20 does not have to refer to the nearest noun (Jesus Christ in this case)."

    "Henry Alford cites two passages from John's epistles to make his point: 'Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist' (1 John 2:22). 'For many deceivers went forth into the world, namely they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.' (2 John 7). From these two passages it is clear that "this" does not necessarily refer back to the immediately preceding noun. If it did, it would make Jesus the deceiver and the antichrist. The pronoun "this" in 1 John 5:20 refers rather to the preceding phrase "Him who is true," describing the Father, not Jesus. If we compare John 17:3 we shall see that 1 John 5:20 as an echo of that verse: "This is eternal life, that they should believe in you [the Father], the only true God, and in Jesus Christ whom you have sent.""

    "In his book The Trinity In The New Testament, the Trinitarian Arthur Wainwright comes to the same conclusion. He does not think that Jesus is called true God in 1 John 5:20. Henry Alford, who had the highest regard for the scriptures, concludes: "I own I cannot see, after this saying of our Lord, 'You are the only true God' (John 17:3), how anyone can imagine that the same Apostle can have had in these words (John 17:3) any other reference than that which is given in those (1 John 5:20)."

    "If we carefully weigh the evidence, it seems beyond question that John never departed from belief in the unipersonal God of his Old Testament heritage. This brings him in line with his beloved Master who likewise never veered from devotion to the One God of Israel." (The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, pgs 279, 280)

    Additionally, I researched this myself and came up with the following;

    (RSV) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Let's look at this in context to see what was meant by John. Starting back in verse 18, we read; "We know that any one born of God does not sin, ." Obviously, this is addressing those who have embraced the truths of God and arranged their lives in accordance with scriptural admonitions.

    Next, "but He who was born of God keeps him," And, who was "born of God?" Revelation 3:14 answers this with; "And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." We know this to obviously be Jesus, the one who is "born of God."

    Next, we read; "and the evil one does not touch him." Naturally, being in the protection of Jesus and his Father will protect us from Satan. Satan targets those of us who accept Jesus and his Father, but by clinging fast to God's Word and following as he told his Son to tell us, we may be protected.

    Then, we next read, at verse 19; "We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one." All who deny Christ and his Father are living under the power of Satan.

    On to verse 20, we read; "And we know that the Son of God has come" I can't imagine any of us arguing over this section. (1 John 5:22)

    Next, we read what he did as he came; "and has given us understanding, to know him who is true;" We are "given" understanding. We also are given our first glimpse of "Him who is true." The Greek word for understanding is dianoia, which Vines tells us on page 751 of the Unabridged Edition I have, means "a thinking through, or over, a meditation, reflecting, signifies, (a) ....., the faculty of knowing, understanding, or moral reflection,....." The section on understanding refers us to the section on Mind and then gives us the above, in part. Another way of putting it would be that Christians are given intelligence, or understanding, that those not of Christ do not have, to actually see who "He that is true" actually is. But, who is the "he" that actually gives this understanding? The very first part of verse 20 tells us it is the Son of God who has came and given us understanding. So, Jesus gives us that understanding of his Father, just as his Father gave him all authority and understanding.

    So, now we are down to just who is "he that is true" that Jesus gives us understanding of? Before we figure out who it really is, let's look at something, shall we? John 4:22 (RSV) "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." Admittedly, Trinitarians say that the trinity is difficult to understand or explain. Trinity discussions always come down to some variant of, "it's a mystery, and you just have to accept it." But, if Jesus gives us understanding of "he who is true," why would there be any mystery at all? Why would it be difficult to either comprehend, understand or explain? I see that notion as contradicting what the Bible says. Indeed, why would Jesus give us all this other understanding and revelation, yet let a triune mystery God remain clouded in mystery? If the trinity were true, then since Jesus gives understanding to the true followers of his, it should never be brought up what a mystery it is, right? It should be clear as a bell and equally easy and clear to explain. I don't see this as God's way of dealing with his true people.

    That being said, back to 1 John 5:20. Next, we read; "and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ." Now, we can see who "he who is true" really is. Clearly, it is God, not Jesus, being spoken of. How can we be sure? John 14:20 (RSV) "In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." Yes, we are in God due to the fact that we are also in Jesus (or, in union or agreement with). John also tells us, at 1 John 2:24 "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father." We abide in Jesus and his Father by means of Jesus' mediatorship. It is through Jesus, who gave us understanding above, that we can clearly see through the ancient dogma of such God displeasing doctrines as the trinity.

    Next, we end the discussion with, "This is the true God and eternal life." We can see that "the true God and eternal life" belong to the Father, not to the Son. Jesus directs us to his Father, not to himself. He mediates between us and his Father, not himself. He preached to all about his Father, not himself.

    It is the Father we are directed to worship in spirit and truth, not the Son. Therefore, 1 John 5:20 is not calling Jesus God, but is calling Jesus' Father God, just as Jesus and his apostles taught.

    Sorry if this comes across JWish. I put it together a few years ago before I DA'd myself and haven't really edited it since. Still, I do not believe one has to be JW to disbelieve in the trinity. For me, I didn't believe in it decades before ever studying with the dubs. And, I see no reason to start believing in it now.

    That others do really doesn't bother or offend me. I am merely showing another side of the issue and hope none of you see me as condemning your belief. I just present why I don't accept it.

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    So what do you believe about the Son? Are you saying he is a god, not the same as the father? Only the pagans were polytheistic. He cannot be "a god" without being a false god, too many scriptures saying ONE GOD.

    Actually, SAND, I have gone over this before. If, as you are saying, Jesus is God and there is only one God, as Jesus and the Bible say, who was Jesus praying too? Indeed, who resurrected him? Many are addressed as 'god' in the Bible, even Jesus says so at John 10:34, referring to the leaders of Israel.

    Today, when we say God we think of YHWH, Almighty God. But, way back when, the term did not always carry that same restrictive sense we place on it today. Even Satan is called god at 2 Cor. 4:4. Surely you do not believe he too is false, do you?

    Personally, even though "a god" is the literal translation of John 1:1, I never liked the confusion that caused when I was with the dubs. But, just becuase Jesus too is sometimes referred to as "god," that does not make him the Almighty God. If it did, then he would have had to be lying when he prayed to the Father and called Him "the ONLY True God" at John 17:3. If he were God and there is only one God, as the Bible clearly and often states, how can Jesus, who you are saying is God, call another "the ONLY True God?"

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Sangdigger

    Just one more point I'd like to toss in.
    We have a Very limited perspective when it comes to creation. Everything we humans analyze and study and research and ponder has limits. Anything beyond that is imagination. Everything directly connected to our existence (with the exception of our creator) has a beginning and end that we can measure.
    The only thing we can measure regarding Jesua is the time he spent on earth. Anything beyond that is out of our reach.

    Just for the sake of argument lets say we agree that God and Jesus are actually literally ONE in the same. Who was God giving the gift of creation to that has to do with "OUR" existence?
    Not the existence of infinity but just "OUR" existence?

    If God had no beginning and has no end and we've only been here less then 10,000 years, how can anyone be so sure that there haven't already been thousands (AT least) more creations before us?

    There could very well be other creations simular to what we know annd for all we know we could be the bottom of the barrell. The retards of the universe.

    IMO it is very silly to think that a being such as GOD would just be hanging out in the middle of nowhere all by himself talking to himself and then millions and billions of years go by and he one day says to himself, Hey I'm bored I think I'll create myself again and maybe one more time so there are three of me.

    We cannot comprehend the beginning of Gods first creation any more then we can comprehend the beginning of God. We are not made that way.
    Maybe we would have been a whole lot closer to having the ability to comprehend it until Adam and Eve screwed everything up for us.

    We're so far from having minds that aren't full of so much crap no matter how much we want, we are still limited.
    What ever bible you choose to follow one thing you will find in all of them is the constant reminder to humble ourselves before God and not get to high and mighty about what we think because we are not everything.
    We are not OWED anything because we are here.

    How long do you think God existed ,and don't just say forever. Forever is only a word in our vocab. And what was the first thing he did as God? Try and figure out a way to answer that, in your own mind.

  • Greekgal
    Greekgal

    You are actually wrong! The trinity is true. Well you might say to me then, "The word trinity is never once used in the Bible, so I am not going to believe it." Ok, well do you believe that God is loving? Yes. Do you believe God is merciful? Yes. Do you believe God is holy? Yes. Ok, so you believe God has "atributes"? Yes. But...the word atribute is never once used in the Bible! What are you going to do? Totally change your theology? Or just back away? A common argument is this: JW say to me "In Isaiah 48:16 it is Isaiah talking, not God. Well if you look at the context of this verse, God was talking before this. Isaiah would never so to say "interrupt" God while He is talking. So thats just a quick and easy answer to say that there is a trinity, based by scripture. Thank you!

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    If you want to believe that and it makes you feel better in someway to believe God is 3 physical beings then by all means knock your self out.
    We don't have to be told by other people what to believe in or how to believe in it anymore were free to openly make our own choices. Isn't that what it realy boils down to anyway?

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Yes, plum, I agree.

    Have you ever thought about how you came about
    making this free choice and/or maintaining it?

    If the watchtower was my teacher in anyway whatsoever,
    that is what would concern me.
    With all their anti- social, anti- christian, anti- intelligent, anti- ethical, on & on policies,
    their doublethink, doublespeak practices,
    theocratic warfare strategies,
    I'd be seriously looking into the "mechanics" of it.

    The WT does a pretty good job when it comes to destoying the faith of others,
    like a poisonous snake.
    If one believed the stories the WT drums about Satan against God, Good against Evil, then who has done more harm against God's image, the innocent?

  • Sangdigger
    Sangdigger

    Dak,
    I enjoyed your response, as i know you put a lot of thought into it. But i must say, it seems as if you are basing most of your belief in the fact that nowhere is Jesus called the "True God", and the fact that he called the Father the only "True God" First of all, to answer you question about Jesus praying to God, therefore he couldnt be God.

    Lets take my earlier illustration about husband/wife. Remember how once married, the bible calls them "ONE FLESH" The bible also calls them both "MAN" Im getting ready to go out on a limb, so bear with me. What if she travelled to another planet to buy some property,and called me on the phone, talked to me, and then told other people she had met,that she was there to represent me,in pefect agreement with me. When asked what her species were, she could reply, "MAN". She them could explain she was ONE with her husband. That she was in me, and i in her. TWO people, ONE NATURE.

    Jesus actually said he was the true vine. Titus 2:13 says: "While we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, will be revealed" Once again, i say YES he was in submission the Father, but was still equal with the Father in his very Nature.

    If the title God was not taken that seriously back then by men, God sure took it serious. What about the Roman Governer (name escapes me) who was eaten of worms and died, simply because the people said he had the voice of "a god" and he didnt correct them. Yaweh said he would Give his Glory to NO OTHER.

    And of these other people and satan, and so forth being called "gods", none of them are ever called mighty, great,saviour,wonderfull,everlasting,the first and the last,.......
    It sounds like from these passages, the Father has given his glory to another. His Son, the Lord of Glory.(1cor.2:8,) Who is this King of Glory? The LORD, strong and MIGHTY, the LORD mighty in battle (psalms 24:8)

    Sorry DAK, Only ONE True God, the rest of them are FALSE!!

  • Lindon
    Lindon

    But in the being of God there are not three individuals, but only three personal self distinctions within one devine essence. Then again, personality in man implies independence of will, actions, and feeling leading peculiar to the individual. This cannot be thought of in the connection with the trinity:each person is self concious and self directing, yet never acts independent

    or in opposition ( to the others). When we say that God is a Unity, we mean that though (He) is in himself a threefold center of life His life is not split into three. He is one in essence, in personality, and in will. When we say that God is a Trinity in Unity, we mean that there is unity in diversity, and that diversity manifests itself in persons, in characteristics, and operation.Also if there is NO trinity what so ever how do you explain.....

    1.In Genesis 1:26 Jehovah is speaking of creation, and He speaks in the plural number, " Let US create man in our image after OUR likeness"

    2.In acts 5:34 in verse 3 Peter accuses Ananias of lying to the Holy Spirit and in verse 4 Peter declares that Anaias had lied to God, thus equating the Holy Spirt with the Godhead. And also who else but a person can be lied to?

    3. In John 14:6 Jesus told him, " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

    4.Acts 13:2,4. I the context , the Holy Spirit speaks and sends., as He does in 21:10-11, where he prophesies Paul's imprisonment. Only a personality can do these things not "an invisble act of force" as the JW's describe him.

    5.Such references such as John 14:16-17, 26; and 16:7-14 need NO comment . He is a devine person and He is God.

    I could do more but let's try that for starters.

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