Does consciousness end with the death of the body

by givemejustalittlemoretime 129 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "Did the universe give birth to mind? Or, does mind direct the universe?

    How else are we to understand the implications of the two slit experiment?

    See Robert Lanza's work" - Perry

    I don't know if this was a reply for me, anyway:

    Did the universe give birth to mind? Or, does mind direct the universe?

    I don’t know. The Big Bang is not even an attempt to explain where the universe came from, it simply describes an event at the beginning of this universe. Whether or not the Big Bang emerged from “nothing” and exactly what “nothing” is, is an interesting question. It is remarkable, however, that the some people are trying to promote their own theory of everything by pointing to what is currently unexplained by science have to go all the way to the origin of the universe.

    Just because we have not yet fully explained the origins of the universe, that does not mean that our current paradigms of physics and cosmology will not eventually provide at least a partial explanation. Lanza's space and time arguments are essentially the same.

    The experiment, detecting the presence of the photon as it passes through the slit, has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. This is pseudoscience, and he is using his credentials to sell that pseudoscience to the public. Take a look again at his website. Biocentrism is not even science.

    Have the claims (eternal soul) been verified by another source?
    Have you ever talk with someone who is dead?
    Is that even possible?
    How does the claim (eternal soul) fit with what we know about how the world works?

    Do your personal beliefs and biases stir you to this conclusions, or vice versa?

    Ismael

  • Perry
    Perry

    the presence of the photon as it passes through the slit, has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness

    Mad Giant,

    Go ahead and tell us what the photon behavior does have to do with... if not consciousness. You can win the nobel prize right here.

    You know more than these folks?

    “… Robert Lanza’s work is a wake-up call to all of us”
    —David Thompson, Astrophysicist, NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center

    You should enjoy this book, and it should help you on your personal journey to understanding.”
    —Richard Conn Henry, Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Johns Hopkins University

    This new theory is certain to revolutionize our concepts of the laws of nature for centuries to come.”—Anthony Atala, renowned scientist, W.H. Boyce Professor, Chair, and Director of the Institute for Regenerative Medicine, Wake Forest University School of Medicine

    The scientific experiments show that consciousness must somehow exist outside of space & time, is part of the fabric of the universe, impacts reality and somehow does a little bit (or a lot) of creating along the way. This is consistent with a biblical point of view:

    Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "Go ahead and tell what the photon behavior does have to do with... if not consciousness. You can win the nobel prize right here.

    You know more than these folks?" - Perry

    My friend, try not to be so arrogant. In addition, don't appeal to authority is a fallacy. He states that when the physicist is looking light will go through the two slits as particles, making two clumps of light on the other side. If the physicist is not looking, however, the light will pass through as a wave and make an interference pattern.

    Read the experiment, the result depend not at all on the presence or absence of an observer or a consciousness. If the photon has to interact with any particle of matter, then the probability wave must collapse and it behaves like a particle. If the photon is not detected, however, then it continues to travel as a wave until it hits the film or photon detector on the other side of the slit, at which point the wave function collapses.

    The only thing that matters is whether or not the photons are detected or interacted with in any way prior to or after passing through the slits. This has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. If it does how?

    Have the claims (eternal soul) been verified by another source?
    Have you ever talk with someone who is dead?
    Is that even possible?
    How does the claim (eternal soul) fit with what we know about how the world works?

    Do your personal beliefs and biases stir you to this conclusions, or vice versa?

    Ismael

  • Perry
    Perry

    The only thing that matters is whether or not the photons are detected or interacted with in any way prior to or after passing through the slits.... This has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. If it does how?

    Mad Giant,

    The experiments PROVE that not only is human observation and planning ALONE the determining factor, but also time and distance is irrelevant:

    "But now let’s destroy our ability to measure the which-way paths of the s photons, but without interfering with them in any way. We can do this by placing a polarizing window in the path of the other photon P, far away. This plate will stop the second detector from registering coincidences. It’ll measure only some of the photons, and effectively scramble up the double-signals. Since a coincidence-counter is essential here in delivering information about the completion of the twins’ journeys, it has now been rendered thoroughly unreliable. The entire apparatus will now be uselessly unable to let us learn which slit individual photons take when they travel along path S because we won’t be able to compare them with their twins – since nothing registers unless the coincidence counter allows it to. And let’s be clear: We’ve left the QWPs in place for photon S. All we’ve done is to meddle with the p photon’s path in a way that removes our ability to use the coincidence counter to gain which-way knowledge. (The set-up, to review, delivers information to us, registers “hits,” only when polarity is measured at detector S AND the coincidence counter tells us that either a matching or non-matching polarity has been simultaneously registered by the twin photon at detector P). The result:

    They’re waves again. The interference pattern is back. The physical places on the back screen where the photons or electrons taking path s hit have now changed. Yet we did nothing to these photons’ paths, from their creation at the crystal all the way to the final detector. We even left the QWPs in place. All we did was meddle with the twin photon far away so that it destroyed our ability to learn information. The only change was in our minds. How could photons taking path S possibly know that we put that other polarizer in place — somewhere else, far from their own paths? And QT tells us that we’d get this same result even if we placed the information-ruiner at the other end of the universe.

    (Also, by the way, this proves that it wasn’t those QWP plates that were causing the photons to change from waves to particles, and to alter the impact points on the detector. We now get an interference pattern even with the QWPs in place. It’s our knowledge alone that the photons or electrons seem concerned about. This alone influences their actions.)

    Okay, this is bizarre. Yet these results happen every time, without fail. They’re telling us that an observer determines physical behavior of “external” objects. Could it get any weirder? Hold on: Now we’ll try something even more radical – an experiment only first performed in 2002. Thus far the experiment involved erasing the which-way information by meddling with the path of p and then measuring its twin s. Perhaps some sort of communication takes place between photon p and s, letting s know what we will learn, and therefore giving it the green light to be a particle or a wave and either create or not create an interference pattern. Maybe when photon p meets the polarizer it sends s an IM (instant message) at infinite speed, so that photon s knows it must materialize into a real entity instantly, which has to be a particle since only particles can go through one slit or the other and not both. Result: No interference pattern.

    To check out whether this is so, we’ll do one more thing. First we’ll stretch out the distance p photons have to take until they reach their detector, so it’ll take them more time to get there. This way, photons taking the S route will hit their own detectors first. But oddly enough, the results do not change! When we insert the QWPs to path S the fringes are gone; and when we insert the polarizing scrambler to path P and lose the coincidence-measuring ability that lets us determine which-way info for the S photons, the fringes return as before. But how can this be? Photons taking the S-path already finished their journeys. They either went through one or the other slit, or both. They either collapsed their “wave function” and became a particle or they didn’t. The game’s over, the action’s finished. They’ve each already hit the final barrier and were detected – before twin p encountered the polarizing scrambling device that would rob us of which-way information.

    The photons somehow know whether or not we will gain the which-way information in the future. They decide not to collapse into particles before their distant twins even encounter our scrambler. (If we take away the P scrambler, the S photons suddenly revert to being particles, again before P’s photons reach their detector and activate the coincidence counter.) Somehow, photon s knows whether the “which-way” marker will be erased even though neither it, nor its twin, have yet encountered an erasing mechanism. It knows when its interference behavior can be present, when it can safely remain in its fuzzy both-slits ghost reality, because it apparently knows photon p — far off in the distance — is going to eventually hit the scrambler, and that this will ultimately prevent us from learning which way p went.

    It doesn’t matter how we set up the experiment. Our mind and its knowledge or lack of it is the only thing that determines how these bits of light or matter behave."

    .

    .

    So, since the facts show that the mind itself is creating the measurable reality .....I would argue that it is doing so in the image and likeness of its Creator. Our bodies obviously cannot exist outside of space / time confinements, but science is now showing that our minds/soul/spirit certainly does; just as our Creator does. And furthermore, the universe is designed for this very purpose at levels we are just now beginning to understand from a scientific point of view.

    "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he"

  • designs
    designs

    As usual you leave out whole chapters. Mystics want science to prove fairies exist, it is an age old pattern.

    Read Robertson on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "The experiments prove that not only is observation the determining factor, but also time is irrelevant." - Perry
    "Go ahead and tell what the photon behavior does have to do with... if not consciousness. You can win the nobel prize right here." - Perry

    Lanza questions the conventional idea that space and time exist as objective properties of the universe. In doing this, he argues that space and time are products of human consciousness and do not exist outside of the observer.

    The intent behind this argument is to help consolidate the view that subjective experience is all there is. However, if you dig into what Lanza says it becomes clear that he is positioning the relativistic nature of reality to make it seem incongruous with its objective existence. His reasoning relies on a subtle muddling of the concepts of subjectivity and objectivity.

    His model for time can't be verify, therefore cannot be a part of science. The idea of time as a series of sequential events that we perceive and put together in our heads is an experiential version of time. But I agree, in reality time is relative. But time does exist outside of the observer, but allows us only a narrow perception of its true nature. This is a fundamental fact of modern physics.

    In addition, an elementary particle can exist as a superposition of two or more alternative quantum states. When we humans observe such a system, say an electron, with an instrument. At the moment of observation, the wave function appears to collapse into only one of the possible alternative states, the superposition of which was described by the wave function before the event of measurement.

    Two identical particles, in identical initial conditions, need not be observed to be in the same final conditions at a later time.

    Have the claims (eternal soul) been verified by another source?
    Have you ever talk with someone who is dead?
    Is that even possible?
    How does the claim (eternal soul) fit with what we know about how the world works?
    Do your personal beliefs and biases stir you to this conclusions, or vice versa?

    Ismael

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    "He is not dead...he is sleeping" Sleeping means unconscious. Lazarus was not enjoying heaven for four days and then reluctantly transported back from glory to his aging body. Unconscious implies life. Our next conscious moment will be in the presence (parousia) of our Lord.

  • Oh Gawd
    Oh Gawd

    A pretty smart guy named Einstien weighed in on this matter long ago. This is a very short, easy to understand, summary of the subject

    http://www.worldscienceu.com/science_unplugged/videos/when-we-die-are-we-really-gone

  • givemejustalittlemoretime
    givemejustalittlemoretime

    Christ conciouness exists for eternity so therefore it does go on after death. If someone is not christ consious by the time they die in the flesh then ? THe fusion between his conciouness and yours takes place. Existing outside of time and motion. We are all Christ conscious even if we do not beleive in him. Because the fathers plan is to reconcile ALL back to himself

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "Christ conciouness exists for eternity so therefore it does go on after death. If someone is not christ consious by the time they die in the flesh then ? THe fusion between his conciouness and yours takes place. Existing outside of time and motion. We are all Christ conscious even if we do not beleive in him. Because the fathers plan is to reconcile ALL back to himself" - giveme

    This is a very bold claim. Do you have a way to backup those claims? Let's assume for a second that you are correct, then:
    There is no hell, and I will return to christ conscious then what am I saved from?
    Romans 6:23
    If I am christ conscious and eventually will return to him, then why not just be merry and "sin" to my heart’s content, as I am part of jesus already?
    Romans 2:15, 5:12
    1 Timothy 4:10
    If I am part of jesus conscious even if I am not a believer, then what is the point of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross?
    1 John 2:2
    Why bother evangelizing the world?
    John 6:44
    Matthew 24:14

    For God’s true believers, the work of evangelism is obedience to Jesus Christ’s great command to ‘Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature’ (Luke 16:15).

    Are you trying to deceive people, are you intellectually dishonest or just plain dishonest.

    Ismael

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