You should meet Brother Smart Engineer

by garyneal 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    My wife, who now thinks I am not competent enough to discuss spiritual matters with the kids, thinks that I could really benefit from discussing matters of the Bible with this NASA engineer who attends meetings at her kingdom hall. Apparently, he is quite knowledgeable in the Bible and has a good grasp of their doctrines. At least according to her as I never actually spoken with the man at length but I do know that he is an elder. She told me a few days ago that while she was out in field service she asked him if he were willing to come to our house and speak with me and asked if I was okay with it.

    My response, (paraphrasing) “If he is willing to come over and have a friendly discussion about whatever subjects we may have of mutual interest, sure. If he is willing to even have an open discussion about the Bible, sharing what we know, sure. If he is coming to try to teach, preach, or proselytize I’d rather not.” As we all know, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not good at listening and when in a discussion about religion they tend to look for ways to respond to your statements rather than listening to them. This is a flaw that I too am trying to correct in myself and I am evidently making progress since even my wife has stated that I tend to listen more and be more ‘open minded’ (her words) than I used to.

    Personally, though, I can’t help but think that this brother is probably not really interested in speaking with me and may even feel a little obligated since the only reason he is even considering it is because my wife is asking it of him. I don’t know if she feels that there is some glimmer of hope that I might come around or if she just feels that Brother Smart Engineer would be a more suitable person to share the things I am learning about the Bible with. Somehow, I doubt he knows anything about the Bible beyond what the Watchtower publications tell him. Things such as no original copies of the writings, differences in biblical canons between various religions, the anonymous authorship of the gospels, or even the approximate years in which the various books are written are probably unknown to him as they are to most Christians.

    I just told my wife that while I appreciate the gesture I can’t help but question the motivation of this visit and helped her to relate by asking how she would’ve felt if during the time I was attending church I invited someone from the church that she barely knows to come to our house to speak with her. I think she got the message and told me that she understood but I made it clear that if he still wanted to come over to get to know me, he was welcomed. I also suggested that we could meet in a more neutral location if it would help. She also suggested that she would’ve like to eventually be able to host get-togethers at our house for her witness buddies, no doubt in an attempt to be more a part of the group. This, I am sure is also part of the motivation behind her wanting me to meet Brother Smart Engineer.

    Has anyone in the group ever had this experience either as the person that your loved one wants to ‘help’ or as the elder, publisher, etc. that was asked upon to meet with such a person like myself? If so, how did you feel about it? If you were the publisher, did you follow through? If so, how did it go? All comments are welcomed.

  • prologos
    prologos

    I persnally know at least 4 NASA (and Nasa contractors) engineers, 2 retired, that are elders, and I highly recommend such a discussion, because you could not find more pleasant personalities to discuss anything with, without repercussions.

    Whether you could move a person off the fence, whichever way, which way are you pulling?

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    Well, I am not pulling in either direction. He is a witness and evidentally a faithful one unless he secretly does not believe in the religion but is putting on a facade. I understand a good number of NASA engineers attend services at the Universalist Unitarian church in our city.

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    If you can avoid talking religion you might make a sorta-friend out of him, but know that he'll probably always be plotting how to convert you.

    If you get on religion, it will probably go one of two ways. He'll either listen to your questions and tell you he doesn't know and he'll do research (in JW literature, of course) and get back to you. In this case you'll probably never discuss relgion again, since he won't be able to actually answer most of your questions. The other possibility is that he'll just steamroll right over you with lots of logical fallacies and such. If he's a typical engineer, though, it'll probably be more of the former rather than the latter.

  • prologos
    prologos

    garyneal, technical people know how hard it is to make reliable, function things. most find it hard to believe that the universe made itself.

    picking one religion over another might be a minor matter for them, as they always know better knowledge is just one rocket launch away. so

    listen to the man, particularly if you are well educated too, it should be a great meeting of the minds.

  • bohm
    bohm

    I say go for it! Your wife might out of curiosity ask you what you are discussing (I would not tell her on my own accord) and it could provide you with an oppertunity to present two sides of an argument to her. Worst case he is fully in and you will just waste one day.

    At any rate, the more open-minded you are about other points of view, the more open minded she might feel like being.

    I had similar discussions with a "superbrother" back in the day. Best idea is to do your best not to contradict anything he says but rather ask questions; be aware it takes a lot of effort, both in terms of knowing the material and self-restraint and awareness of what you say and what he has said.

    Since he is an engineer, ask him if he feel the bible is scientifically prooven (or known) to the same degree things are in engineering. Ask him for specific examples. Ask him if the bible is as proven, i.e. if the arguments are as good, as might be expected to show a piece of an airplane or spacecraft is made correctly so it can be certified.

    Ask him how one should examine claims of the bible and how he has examined them. For instance: "as a scientist, how have you researched the question of evolution?"

    Ask him why the watchtower has not published a single thing of substance on C14 dating for (what is it now?) 20 years or so?

    If he tell you about faith, ask him if the bible can be shown to be true without relying on faith. Ask him if he feel faith is a reliable way to obtain knowledge. Ask him what faith is; ask him what the bible verse he then quote to you mean in practical terms.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Does your wife remember than in the 1st century the apostles were not seen as great scholars or full of knowledge of the world. Unlettered and ordinary...

    Jesus talked to the common people but the religious leaders listened too but did not get the sense of it.

    I remember a sister taking a brother purported to be very smart...to call on a local minister who blew this brother out of the water in a kind, simple way using only the NWT....I was that sister and a learned a lot that day.

  • neverendingjourney
    neverendingjourney

    Are you in the Houston area? I know a NASA engineer who's a JW. In fact, he married my ex-girlfriend.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Since he is an engineer, ask him if he feel the bible is scientifically proven (or known) to the same degree things are in engineering. [...] For instance: "as a scientist, how have you researched the question of evolution?"

    I don't want to sound like I'm splitting hairs, but is an engineer a scientist? To my knowledge, engineers apply science but don't "do" science. They apply principles which they learn in school but they don't perform scientific studies to discover new information and test hypotheses.

    Therefore, they are not trained to have the critical mindset of a scientist. This is why so many engineers are religious, because they don't have the same standards of evidence as scientists. They look at a natural object that is complex and works well, and assume it is designed because they do similar work themselves.

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    I don't know how good your bible knowledge is but if your wife was willing to be with you during your discussion it may be a good thing. If you can ask questions and are able to show the person things in the bible that shows fault in their teaching then maybe it will show your wife that you are not an idiot and that the man from nasa is not so smart after all. This could help you later with ttatt. I would love the opportunity since my wife things a couple of idiot elders in my hall are so smart and practically worships the ground were a bethelite walks when they come to visit and give a talk..

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