You should meet Brother Smart Engineer

by garyneal 46 Replies latest jw friends

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  Fernando

  If I had the chance, and since he is an intelligent problem solver, I'd really love to ask him:

  "Is legalism apostasy?"
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  NVR2L8

  Gary

  Ask your wife if she believes talking to a Muslim engineer would convince you to convert to Islam. We find highly educated people in all religions, but sadly very few among JW...so few that they make a big deal when one comverts and supports their simplistic beliefs.
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  LisaRose

  Obviously professional training or a degree doesn't automatically infer that a person has knowledge in all areas. Engineering is very specialized, although it does tend to teach you to think more logically. The problem I see most often is that people make certain assumptions at the get go, like we are wonderfully made, so God. If you believe God must exist, you will use your logic to make everything else fit in around your belief. The Watchtower belief system has *some*logic to it, if you accept the original premise that God exists, and you believe that what they are telling you is true.

  I think you might be able to have a discussion with him. Of course he is going to discount everything you say, because to a JW mind you are mislead, or spiritually weak or misinformed. If that is the case just end the discussion and agree to disagree. Why not do it and see how it ggoes?
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  OneEyedJoe

  Also you might look over this article on JWfacts:

  http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/questions-to-ask-a-jehovahs-witness.php

  that has some good questions to keep in mind that will stir up a little cognitive dissonance and make the engineer quite uncomfortable.

  While I was in the process of waking up, one of the things holding me back was that I knew a number of "smart" people that believed it, and I felt uncomfortable being pompous enough to think of myself as smarter than them. I read some papers on the topic of why smart people believe stupid things, and that was one step towards finally finding TTATT. Basically what it boils down to is that smart people, when in an emotionally trying state (could be short term - the death of a loved one for example - or long term - wife converted to being a JW, and it's difficult to deal with the rift it causes) smart people can sometimes suspend their critical thinking skills and allow a stupid idea to take hold. Once a stupid idea takes hold and the person starts to invest in it, they start to defend it from any conflicting information. The more they invest in it, the more they have to lose if its wrong and the more they'll defend the idea. In this state, conflicting information can actually serve to reinforce the false belief. What got me past that, was I made an agreement with myself that I was honestly searching for the truth, and would go wherever that lead me (fully expecting that it would lead me back to the JWs). Once I did that, it was the beginning of the end for my JW beliefs.

  If you can get a similar agreement from the engineer (especially if he already has a doubt or two) then you might be able to wake him up, but it won't happen all in one discussion. How fun would that be, though? Your wife brings Br. smart engineer over to convert you and you make an atheist out of him!
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  Apognophos

  Caedes: Okay, fair enough. The type of engineers I was thinking of are the sort that design bridges and cars. But if one is doing research, that's a bit different. And though I didn't mean to imply that all engineers are religious, I think it's been shown in polls that more engineers believe in God than scientists do.
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  rjharris

  What I am about to say is said as a wake up call and with all respect and concern:

  Ones knowledge should not be excelling in "The Bible." It should be excelling in Christ and what he taught.

  There are many persons who are adept at discussing the Bible, but inept at discussing Christs teachings.

  The Bible and Christs teachings are not the same thing. The Bible cannot be what Christ is: The Word of God.

  It is men who have elevated a book to the same status as Christ. As there is only one God, there is only one Word of God, not two.

  Persons who believe the Bible is the Word of God place themselves in a situtation mentioned at Matthew 6:24:

  "No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other."

  The Bible as a master and Christ as a master.

  The Bible is a book. Christ is a person.

  One is a false master. The other our true and one and only master.

  Listening to the Bible will cause one to cling to it and despise Christ (in a spiritual sense).

  Proof of this can be seen by looking at the official JW website. Notice what is promoted more than anything else: The Bible.

  Notice what JW seek to make: Bible Studies or Bible Students or Disciples (Students) of the Bible.

  We we should not be making Bible Students, but rather Disciples or Student of Christ. This is Christs command to his disciples at Matthew 28:19-20:

  "Go therefore and make disciples ..."

  There are those who ask, "How else can I learn about Christ if it was not for the Bible?"

  I say to those persons, "You have no faith and you act as if Christ is dead. You learn about God and Christ by prayer."

  Ones knowledge of God and Christ is limited when they rely on what they can see on the printed page. What one can see does not require faith. (Heb 11:1)

  However, an exercise of faith in approaching the invisible God through His invisible (and alive) Son in prayer provides us far far more than a book ever can. The problem is that few misuse prayer and have not come to understand that is why it is there. It is our communication channel to the Most High God through his Son.

  If I need to understand a weighty matter, I don't need to use a book ( I can see) to find the solution or answer. I can prayer to the Father who I cannot see in faith through His Son and it is through that same channel that I will receive from the Bible. (John 14:6 and John 4:23-24)

  Yet, religious organization - and indeed all of Christianity - has duped the world into relying on a book and calls this book The Word of God.

  This is blasphemous and makes those persons idolators since they mave made another Word of God for themselves.

  The Most High God has spoken and has told us who to exclusively listen to. We are not to listen to any religious organization by any name or to any human agency. We are to listen to only one; the one The Most High chose and authorized.

  Men authorized a book and have chosen that book. God, on the other hand, authorized, sent and chose His Son.

  "And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him." (Luke 9:35)

  Fear of men have millions revering there organizations a book (which is their image) rather than Christ himself and what he taught.

  Proof: Did Jesus ever say that he would return in 1914? Did he ever tell his disciples to look for a date? Or is this something religious organization says?

  In fact, what did Jesus say concerning his return?

  "Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming." (Matthew 24:42, see Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:7)

  See my point? Men use the Bible to derive a date. Jesus says you DO NOT KNOW. So who is being listened to? The Bible (and the organizations who revere it) or Christ himself.

  Wake up people!
• 

  garyneal

  Okay, excellent comments from everyone. I'll try to sum up the comments here as there is so much to respond to but I must start with a little bit about myself as it seems I keep forgetting that some people leave and new ones come on to this board.

  I don't consider myself a Bible scholar by any stretch, I am nowhere near what Laia or Narkesos are in terms of their biblical and historical understanding but I have been learning as much as I can whereever I can. That said, there was a time when I was really religious. In fact, if you look at my original postings on here you will see that I was very religious. I was an engineering student in a university back in the 1990s and I was very involved in religion back then. Like most 'smart' believers, I could easily make evidence fit my conclusions regarding God and His place in the universe. However, I found that a) a lot of my justifications for my beliefs had little basis in the Bible, b) I REALLY did not know the Bible, and c) for a long time I would not allow myself to be challenged in my thinking. Once I began really looking for evidence the scales began to fall.

  My wife says that I am 'such a smart man to not understand things' which drives home the point that was made in this thread in that Jehovah's Witnesses tend to think of all outsiders as mislead or deluded and therefore not worth listening to. If I had done that, I would've been a much 'stronger Christian' and a seriously deluded individual. I am thankful for my doubts and my uncertainty now but it was a hard path to take as so much of my beliefs were at stake. I can understand and appreciate why others, like my wife, would not want to follow that path.

  To answer a hair splitting question that was posed, engineers are not scientist in very strict sense. It is easy to see why an engineer can see the complexity of things in the world. I even remember making the point to my physics instructor that the second law of thermodynamics contradicts the evolution theory. Of course, I forgot that little thing known as the SUN that without it, life on Earth would not exist.

  Now, regarding Bro Smart Engineer, I really don't know my wife's motives but she tells me quite frequently that he sounds a lot like me when he discusses Bible things. So I am guessing that she thinks he could maybe convince me or at least make me think on some things that she cannot answer. However, I think she is trying to set us both up and I do not want him to feel obligated to speak with me in anyway. Besides, if he was really that interested, I think he would've already done so. Some other things I know that may affect his thinking is that the elders at her hall know I associate with apostates (by posting here). Also, a pioneer brother attempted to have a Bible study with me sometime ago, not to mention the six years I spent studying with them from 2003 to 2009. So I can imagine that if this guy is an elder and is aware of all of this, he very likely wishes to keep his distance.
• 

  garyneal

  Ask your wife if she believes talking to a Muslim engineer would convince you to convert to Islam. We find highly educated people in all religions, but sadly very few among JW...so few that they make a big deal when one comverts and supports their simplistic beliefs.

  I thought of this myself. How many smart mormons are there? If one of them spoke with her, would she change her beliefs? No? Then...

  Obviously professional training or a degree doesn't automatically infer that a person has knowledge in all areas.

  When I was in the university, a philosophy professor (who also teaches religious studies) spoke about a man who appeared on the 700 club who said he knew the location of Heaven. This got him curious so he watched and as the individual tried to say that Heaven was behind the black holes in space. He gave no explanation regarding how he came to that conclusion except for some vague and vacuous statements that your typical believer makes and when it came out that he was an electrical engineer the professor turned it off saying, "What does an Electrical Engineer know about things like this?"

  As an Electrical Engineer myself I was a bit offended by the professor's comments but I understand what he means now. Really, what do I know about the Bible and religion? VERY LITTLE and even less so at the time. The more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know far exceeds what I do know.

  rjharris: Um, keep up the preaching work.
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  garyneal

  Does your wife remember than in the 1st century the apostles were not seen as great scholars or full of knowledge of the world. Unlettered and ordinary... Jesus talked to the common people but the religious leaders listened too but did not get the sense of it.

  Yeah, it is funny how Brother Smart Engineer's intelligence is honored because he agrees with the WT but as for me, well I am one of those intellectuals with whom the word of God was hidden from.

  Are you in the Houston area?

  Nope, Hampton Roads.

  In short, I think if you look deep enough into the engineer, you'll find that he had issues before joining the cult. He probably still does have these issues.

  Yeah, either that or his whole social system is in it and he is afraid to look too deep into his beliefs. A lot of smart people are like that.

  A discussion of actual JW history would be nice to read about. Does Brother Engineer know that the nu-light on the "Superior Authorities" was originally correct and then changed by Rutherfraud, but the changed back to the correct understanding?? Does Brother Engineer know that the WTBTS has NOT consistently taught 1914 as the beginning of last days??

  HA HA, I doubt it but you never know. I just know that Brother Hero (a pioneer brother who failed to explain the blood doctrine contradictions) didn't.

  Einstein was obviously brilliant in at least one way, but if he had become a JW, would he have automatically been more qualified than other men in his cong to teach the Bible and JW doctrine?

  Albert Einstein — 'Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.'

  I know a NASA jw dude too-- he was once a MS.Anyways, he quit that position, they're rich and travel everywhere, do everything, and get drunk with other jw friends. It's WHATEVER. He and his family are social jws. I'd rather make friends with genuine ppl.

  This describes this dude too as far as I can tell. I don't know about his drinking but I know he is rich and travels. I guess someone like him would be my wife's wet dream.
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  Oubliette

  At which NASA campus does he work? What is his specialty?
  
  Ask him how does he reconcile his professional work with the WTBTS's repeated admonition for JWs to NOT seek higher education?
  
  Ask him if he'd trade his career builiding rocket ships or satellites or robots or whatever to be a poolman or a window washer?
  
  Ask him what he thinks of this account in the June 15th, 2014, Watchtower on page 6:
  
  "Flavia ... was studying for an advanced degree, her time for preaching the good news was limited. One day she listened as the circuit overseer discussed James 4:17: “If someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.” That moved Flavia to think about her own situation. She relates: “While wanting Jehovah’s blessing, I also wanted satisfaction from my career in science. I had to choose.”
  
  Flavia made the personal decision to end her studies at the university." - Emphasis added

  Tell him he needs to quit his job at NASA and start cleaning windows or toilets or "it is a sin for him." - James 4:17

  

  

  Former NASA Engineer cleans toilets for Jehovah's Glory