You should meet Brother Smart Engineer

by garyneal 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Ah, she's setting up a play date for you! My sort-of JW sister tried that. I told her that, because I'm an apostate and speak against the JWs, I couldn't meet with her JW friend (high school math teacher). I'd get her friend in trouble if the elders found out that she was associating with me. Plus, her dad is an elder. I never heard about the woman again, until my BIL mentioned that she's a wack-job and on psycho drugs to keep her from cracking up to the pistachio house. Apparently, BIL tried to tell my sort-of JW sister that her friend was flying without a full quart or oil. That led to a fight, until my sort-of JW sister figured out that her friend had issues.

    In short, I think if you look deep enough into the engineer, you'll find that he had issues before joining the cult. He probably still does have these issues.

    Here's my devil made me do it side. Get to know him and then secretely invite him to a really nice strip club, and see if he agrees to do it. (he, he). Porno isn't against the religion's tenants, unless it's gross pornography. But, the R&F don't think this is the policy. Elders can be darn hypocrites! See if he'll go, and then agree to meet him at the strip club's parking lot. Drive separately, but take your wife with you. Don't tell her where you are going. This will help your wife see through the bullshit of the religion!

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    A discussion of actual JW history would be nice to read about. Does Brother Engineer know that the nu-light on the "Superior Authorities" was originally correct and then changed by Rutherfraud, but the changed back to the correct understanding?? Does Brother Engineer know that the WTBTS has NOT consistently taught 1914 as the beginning of last days??

    I would love to know. I suspect that he is just another WT regurgitator.

    DD

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Brighter people are better at making excuses for their delusions. It's all about what you are up for.

  • Magnum
    Magnum

    I would say in a sincere tone "Why do you feel it would be beneficial to have a NASA engineer to come over and talk with me? I thought the truths of the Bible were supposed to be so simple that any sincere person could understand and teach them - no matter what his education level might be. If it takes a NASA engineer to explain the Bible, then how can JWs baptize ten-year-olds? They certainly wouldn't be able to understand the doctrine."

    This kind of mentality among JWs irks me. So they have to get a NASA engineer to come explain the Bible? If such education is needed, then why are seven uneducated men making up the GB? One might say "Well, holy spirit enables them." Well, then, can't holy spirit enable ordinary brothers in the local congregations to teach the supposedly simple, clear truths of the Bible?

    Another thing is that most JWs (and, actually, non-JWs, too) don't understand what it means to have an engineering degree or be an engineer. I have had a lot of exposure to science and engineering curricula and classes. I can tell you that one's having an undergraduate engineering degree simply means he took the basic university core curriculum which includes English, humanities electives, history, etc. He also was requred to take the following which is required of all science and engineering majors: the standard calculus sequence of courses, the standard calculus-based physics sequence of courses, and probably a chemistry course or two. He then took a few courses specific to his major. It does not take a genius to get an engineering degree; believe me, I know many who have such degrees. It sounds so impressive to those who know nothing about it. Much of the engineering curriculum is broad, general theory. Much, if not most, of what an engineer does has to be learned on the job. Obtaining a graduate engineering degree would require more course work and, for a PhD, a dissertation. The PhD would require one to become expert in a (usually) very narrow, specific field. It would not make him any more capable of teaching the Bible than an undergraduate degree in economics or really, for that matter, a trade school auto repair course. In fact, it all depends on the person. The auto mechanic might be better at teaching the Bible than the engineer (or scientist) with the PhD.

    Apognophos makes a valid point about the difference between scientists and engineers. But even if the guy had a PhD in math or physics or chemistry, I would wonder why he would be needed to explain the Bible. Why would he know more about the Bible or JW theology than a brother in the cong who does manual labor? He might know less. When I took organic chemistry, I had two different instructors with PhD's. They both knew chemistry fairly well, but other than that, they weren't any smarter or more knowledgeable than the average man on the street. They both had bad grammar.

    Einstein was obviously brilliant in at least one way, but if he had become a JW, would he have automatically been more qualified than other men in his cong to teach the Bible and JW doctrine? I don't think so. To me, her wanting to have this "engineer" (woooo - smart man) come talk with you betrays a naivete on her part.

    Another thing: JWs bash higher ed, but they love to point JWs with higher education as if their being JWs somehow certifies the religion.

  • losingit
    losingit

    If you're in the mood to meet other ppl, then go ahead and invite him over. If you're not in the mood for a jw, then don't deal with it. It's pretty simple .

    I know a NASA jw dude too-- he was once a MS.Anyways, he quit that position, they're rich and travel everywhere, do everything, and get drunk with other jw friends. It's WHATEVER. He and his family are social jws. I'd rather make friends with genuine ppl.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Believe it or not, I also know a NASA engineer who is an elder (well, I'm anonymizing ever so slightly, but this is basically true). When he was younger he was a skeptic and non-believer, but when he got older he decided for emotional reasons to start believing in silly things.

    Magnum, his wife might just feel that he will connect better with a JW who's more educated. As jgnat indicated, he may have ways of explaining things that the average Witness has not thought of. Lord knows I had developed a million little rationalizations in my last decade as a believing Witness, because of all the objections I was trying to find answers to. Eventually I realized that no one had ever given me these objections; they were all coming from my own mind. My brain was trying to tell me that 2 + 2 didn't make 5, but it took me a while to notice.

    As a result of this ongoing inner dialogue, I had studied evolution and done a lot of thinking about the more scientifically dubious parts of the Bible like the Flood in order to be able to plausibly explain away any objections or contrary evidence. I don't want it to sound like boasting, but I could have fielded a ton of objections from householders that would have stumped the average JW. It wasn't that I was such a great Witness; I was just desperate to defend my beliefs against my own critical mind. It was a losing battle.

    Anyway, I bring this up because Br. Engineer might be the same. He might have some clever ways of explaining away some issues with the teachings. Or he might not. I've known some smart elders who did not take the time to go beyond whatever the Society had written. If they haven't done that, then naturally their apologetics are going to be pretty shallow and predictable. There's a pretty low intellectual glass ceiling to the Society's literature.

  • Pete Zahut
    Pete Zahut

    If a NASA Engineer or any highly educated person agrees with or becomes a JW, they feel it gives them more credibility and they'll quote him and use him as an example of how even intellegent ones can recognize the truth of their message. If that same person were to later point out the flaws in the doctrine or the science in the Bible, they'd dismiss him and say they are blinded by mere human thinking and knowledge and use him as an example of how dangerous higher education is to ones spirituality.

    Your wife is impressed by his non JW credentials and assumes that if someone like him can accept the "truth" there must be more to it than even she herself realized and surely a smart guy like him should be able to hold his own with you better than she is able to.

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    I know a couple of NASA (and other) engineers. They can be interesting folks. It might be fun just to meet one (a local friend of mine loves telling her friends about her son, "the Rocket Scientist". We actually have those here in Houston:)

    We need a Houston Aposta/opposer meeting! I am right next to NASA off Scarsdale. . .

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Yes, Pete Zahut, it's a big win for JWs any time a "smart guy" joins the religion. Gives them a much bigger boost of faith than a "regular" convert.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    I don't want to sound like I'm splitting hairs, but is an engineer a scientist? To my knowledge, engineers apply science but don't "do" science. They apply principles which they learn in school but they don't perform scientific studies to discover new information and test hypotheses.

    Therefore, they are not trained to have the critical mindset of a scientist. This is why so many engineers are religious, because they don't have the same standards of evidence as scientists. They look at a natural object that is complex and works well, and assume it is designed because they do similar work themselves.

    I am an engineer, partly the problem resides in the fact that engineer is not a protected title, anyone can call themselves an engineer. No doubt the guy who comes to fix your plumbing or heating will call themselves an engineer.

    It also depends on what specialisation the engineer goes into, personally I work in research and development and so we are looking for new ways of doing things, we work with universities to test new ideas. Engineering is practical science so at it's best it does use the exact same mindset as a scientist. If I am designing something I want to see empirical evidence that it works, I want to find anything that proves me wrong and I have to have my peers look at my work critically to find flaws and mistakes.

    I don't see design in natural objects, in fact the design work I do tells me that there are some examples of natural objects that you wouldn't design that way ever if you had a choice.

    Whilst I have no doubt that some engineers are religious (particularly in an overly religious country) doesn't mean that we all are.

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