Is taking a blood transfusion a "Disfellowshipping or Disassoication" offense?

by booker-t 33 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  jam

  New in the borg (1-2 years) an incident took place at a beach

  party (the good old days), my daughter became ill (5 years old).

  We took her to the emergency that evening, the diagnose possibly

  sickle cell anemia, the worst for a JW.

  An elder came to the hospital the next day while tests were done

  on my daughter. Our first child, needless to say we (wife and I)

  were note in our right minds.

  He the elder explain to us that under no circumstances should we

  take blood (1972).

  Ok, the Elder credentials (he was a good brother I must say), he

  retired from the city as a garbage collector with a 9th grade education.

  WTH. The sad thing, I was willing to obey. But fortunately she didn't

  have sickle cell, she was allergic to sea shells...
• 

  TD

  I think you should call Brooklyn Bethel, ask for the service department, and let them know. They seem to be misinformed.

  Sir82, are you aware of a case where disassociation was involuntary? I'm genuinely curious. This would be fairly serious.
• 

  sir82

  I don't know of any cases where any JW took blood, nor of any judicial actions / disassociations / disfellowshippings related to such action.

  I am merely writing based on my understanding of the WTS policy as it would apply in such a case.

  I don't have the "elder manual" handy at the moment - I'm now curious to see what exactly the wording is.
• 

  TD

  The elder manuel establishes procedures, but to me, it doesn't really seem to explain the reasons why things are the way they are. The general impression I get is that, "This is the way Jehovah wants it" instead of "This is the way it has to be legally."

  Most Jehovah's Witnesses, for example don't seem to really understand why J. F. Rutherford was tried and convicted under the Espionage Act of 1917. The specific charge was, "Interfering with the ability of the United States to raise an army during wartime."

  This, more than anything else is why disassociation exists. In the United States, we've come a long way since the paronoia of that time, but there are plenty of other countries that would take a similar view of any church that excommunicates its members for joining their armed forces.

  Disassociation exists for the express purpose of stating, "We didn't disfellowship him/her; They voluntarily left."

  There's not a lot of plausible deniablity when a JW joins the military (Because of the nature of the induction ceremony) but there often is when it comes to medical emergencies. I was in a bad accident once and there is at least a six hour gap in my memory. Everyone, including my wife says I was perfectly lucid during that time, but I remember nothing.
• 

  Laika

  Punkofnice was involuntary disassociated (not for blood, for attending a church)

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/219297/1/I-was-DAd-after-these-2-letters-What-you-think-guys-and-gals#.U_OdostwbqA

  I can't understand the legal benefit of forced disassociation for attending church services, but I'm no legal expert.
• 

  TD

  When someone has committed an actionable offense, JW Elders will often attempt to force them to make a choice through questions like, "Do you still consider yourself to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses?" or "Please tell us in writing whether you still consider yourself to be a member of the congregation" etc. Failure to comply or to give the correct answer will be considered disassociation, but that's not involuntary.

  punkofnice was really in a, Damned if you do; Damned if you don't position there.
• 

  Laika

  Yes, he was TD, poor guy. :(

  FYI TD and sir82, here is the wording from the elder's manual 'shepherd the flock of God', under chapter 9, section 3, under the list 'Actions that may indicate disassociation':

  Willingly and unrepentantly taking blood.

  If someone willingly takes blood, perhaps because of being under extreme pressure, the committee should obtain the facts and determine the individual's attitude. If he is repentant, the committee would provide spiritual assistance in the spirit of Galatians 6:1 and Jude 22, 23. Since he is spiritually weak, he would not qualify for special privileges for a period of time, and it may be necessary to remove certain basic privileges. Depending on the circumstances, the committee may also need to arrange for an announcement to the congregation: "The elders have handled a matter having to do with [name of person]. You will be glad to know that spiritual shepherds are endeavouring to render assistance." On the other hand, if the elders on the committee determine that he is unrepentant, they should announce his disassociation.

  Also under that list are: 'Making known a firm decision to be known no longer as one of Jehovah's Witnesses' 'Joining another religious organization and making known his intention to remain with it.' and 'Taking a course contrary to the neutral position of the Christian congregation.'
• 

  sir82

  Thanks for the quotation.

  if the elders on the committee determine that he is unrepentant, they should announce his disassociation.

  While again, I know of no such instance, it is quite easy to imagine a circumstance (given my experience with certain elders) where a blood-transfusion receiver pleads repentance, but the elders "determine" that he is "unrepentant" anyway.

  That would, in my opinion, be an involuntary disassociation.
• 

  TD

  If someone willingly takes blood...

  Everything that follows is contigent upon that adverbial modification. This is the, "Voluntary" in the equation, which is why I would recommend the Ronald Reagan style of defense if at all possible.

  But you're completely right, Sir82. JW Elders muck up things in ways that could adversely affect the parent organization all the time.
• 

  Laika

  TD: "Elders are not supposed to judge the sincerity of repentance. If a person says they're sorry, then they're sorry."

  Not that I'm trying to pick on you! But I don't think this is up to date either, did you ever see the new JC procedure videos released at the elder's school?

  http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/doubts-over-organizational-solidarity-as-disturbing-video-on-handling-suicide-is-leaked