by Coded Logic 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"'If he existed'. Many unchallenged secular contemporary reports confirm it." - abba
No they don't.
Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ) as portrayed in the Bible is only found in three places: the Bible itself, other early Christian writings, and references by the various early churches (c. 100 CE) to the long dead leader of those churches
Ismael
What qualifies as good evidence?
1) Contemporary evidence: Evidence that dates to the time the person or event actually happened.
2) Derivative evidence: Evidence that is known to use contemporary record-evidence that has since been lost.
3) Comparative evidence: Evidence that gives details that can be checked against known factors of the time.
A good rule of thumb here is that history records the unusual, the special, and the important; and the amount history records is generally directly proportional to when these factors achieve a critical mass. If a person is said to be important and popular during their lifetime then one would expect contemporary or at the least derivative evidence documenting this.
Respectfully,
Ismael
The bible informs us that Jesus whilst on earth was indeed a carpenter.
No, it doesn't.
'If he existed'. Many unchallenged secular contemporary reports confirm it.
No, they don't.
My faith is not blind. I am addicted to religious history books. The clear consensus is that Jesus of Nazareth lived. There is even general agreement about what the disciples believed at his death and the road to Christology where Jesus becomes God. These are academics in universities. They are not seminarians or theologians. I was taught by Elaine Pagels when she was not a believer. Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright discuss the general outline in the book. No one believes that Jesus of Nazareth acted the way he does in the gospels that were canonized.
I don't recall the details for why they are virtually certain Jesus existed. There are prob. sources on the Internet. Google Scholar will return hundreds, if not thousands, of hits. You can also visit a bookstore, read it, and put it back on the shelf for free.
"The clear consensus is that Jesus of Nazareth lived. There is even general agreement about what the disciples believed at his death and the road to Christology where Jesus becomes God."
"No one believes that Jesus of Nazareth acted the way he does in the gospels that were canonized." -
No, no and no.
Historians have no evidence of a historic Jesus dating from the early first century, even though many contemporary writers documented the era in great detail. Philo of Alexandria, for example, wrote in depth about early first-century Palestine, naming other self-proclaimed messiahs, yet never once mentioning a man named Jesus, Yeshua or whatever. Many other contemporary writers covered that era, yet there is not a single mention of any existence, deeds, or words of a man named Jesus or Ismael or PePe or Juan, Yeshua.
Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, in their book The Jesus Mysteries, explain how the myth and legend of Jesus could easily have arisen without a historical founder. The Jesus story was pressed from the same template as other mythical savior-gods who were killed and resurrected, such as Osiris, Dionysus, Mithra, and Attis.
The only think I could think of is Tacitus and Josephus. Tacitus was hardly a contemporary source. He wasn't even born at the time that Jesus supposedly lived. Tacitus is widely known in apologist circles as the first pagan reference to christ or christianity. Early church fathers, however, curiously did NOT save all of Tacitus' writings.
Then, there is the "paragraph" that currently appears in The Antiquities of the Jews, written by Josephus around 95 C.E. The passage has been shown conclusively to be a forgery, and even conservative scholars admit it has been tampered with. But even were it historical, it dates from more than six decades after the supposed death of Jesus.
If this is the strongest and earliest extra-biblical evidence for the historical Jesus, then the scholarship is on the shakiest grounds.
If Jesus, Yeshua, Ismael or PePe, were truly important to history, then Historians should have told us something about him. Yet, they are completely silent about the supposed miracles and deeds of Jesus, Yeshua, Ismael or PePe. If Jesus had truly been the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, then Josephus would have been the exact person to confirm it.
And this is the "most important" historical evidence for Jesus.
Respectfully,
Ismael
My faith is not blind.
By definition, faith is blind.
The clear consensus is that Jesus of Nazareth lived.
There is. There are also no documents contemporary with Jesus mentioning him.
I was taught by Elaine Pagels when she was not a believer.
So you've mentioned. Not sure of relevance?
Jesus of the gospels was a dangerous cult leader and a false prophet.
If Jesus of history existed -I think there probably is was a man behind the myth - then he was an itinerant preacher who was just another of many.
"If Jesus of history existed -I think there probably is was a man behind the myth - then he was an itinerant preacher who was just another of many." -
This comment is very interesting. "early christians", the ones closest to the "critical mass event" never agreed to how/what, Yeshua was:
Ebionites were very Jewish Christians. They believed in 1 god, but, they believed Jesus was completely human and not divine. They also believe Paul was an arch heretic. http://ebionite.org/ – Claim to be modern Ebionites.
Marcionites were Gentiles who claimed Jewish practice was harmful for a relationship with god. They were followers or Marcion, a real person in the 2nd century. They believed in two gods, one Jewish and one Christian. They believed Jesus was completely divine and not human. They believed Paul was the one true apostle of Christ.
Marcion (a real person considered a heretic by Proto-Orthodox Christianity) created the 1st Christian NT Canon around 144 CE. It contained a version of the gospel of Luke and 10 of the 13 letters of Paul, namely Romans, 1st & 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1st & 2nd Thessalonians, and Philemon.
Gnostics Very spiritual and many widely varying subsets. Believed Jesus was a spirit and did not suffer, but only appeared to suffer. They believed in salvation through mysterious knowledge. This world is full of ignorance and suffering; salvation comes not by making it better but by escaping it.
Ismael
How some have the results of 'discrediting Jesus of Nazareth' research seemingly 'on hand' and take such pains to 'prove' there was no God-man Jesus Christ - but still INSIST to others that He be absolutely maligned, insulted and ultimately rejected! Priceless.
How some have the results of 'discrediting Jesus of Nazareth' research seemingly 'on hand'
Is it unusual to remember what you've read?
take such pains to 'prove' there was no God-man Jesus Christ - but still INSIST to others that He be absolutely maligned, insulted and ultimately rejected! Priceless.
TYping things is "taking pains"?
