Is Faith Immoral?

by Coded Logic 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  MadGiant

  "How some have the results of 'discrediting Jesus of Nazareth' research seemingly 'on hand' and take such pains to 'prove' there was no God-man Jesus Christ - but still INSIST to others that He be absolutely maligned, insulted and ultimately rejected! Priceless." - abba

  Sadly, it's because the apologetics bring the same arguments over and over again. Just look at my previous posts. These days I just copy/paste the replies either from my previous posts or my phone.

  In addition, this is part of my personal research. As I stated before, I am an atheist, antitheis, not by choice.

  One more thing, your logical fallacy is called, tu quoque. You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser, you answered criticism with criticism.

  I fail to see what bearing it has on the issues being debated. (Jesus historical evidence)

  Can you please provide us with some good evidence.

  Respectfully,

  Ismael
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  Fernando

  Why discuss such an important concept using the spurious definition of faith that we were taught by the deceptive, manipulative, propagandistic and self-serving Watchtower Organisation and its apostate "ruling religious clergy class and hierarchy"?
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  jgnat

  Sorry for my late re-entrance to this thread. I think the topic is important. I've been busy IRL.

  Cofty, I do hope you do not include me in the number who "resorts to semantics" to avoid difficult questions.

  MadGiant, morals may be a product of our evolutionary heritage, but they are not logical. Though their expression may vary by culture, all people share a basic set of drivers and aversions. Haidt demonstrated this through an ingenious set of stories that are morally repulsive but logically coherent (no harm). Subjects could not explain why the scenario was fundamentally wrong. http://moralfoundations.org/ The only "logic" in our choices is shaped by evolutionary accident (this behavior leads to a world of trouble, that does not). I could also argue that the virtue of faith is one of the evolutionary holdovers, revered by the majority of the populace and may indeed be necessary. Unified in religious faith, a community may choose to work together (bee behaviour) to expel a danger. Religious faith because that is what we have got. We don't currently have a forceful gaia religion to expel perhaps, the danger of global warming.

  Even athiests attempt to break through a believer's mental armour by pointing out that some of the activities of the OT god are morally reprehensible. How can a god be all-powerful and all-loving while allowing atrocities to exist? But, from a purely logical point of view, what is an atrocity? Where do we get that fundamental reverence for life, all life? I'm not attributing this to god, but we all have it.

  Coded Logic, the only reason I introduced romance and hope in to this conversation is to point out that there are many good things we do that is contrary to evidence. Just because we do many illogical things it does not follow that they are immoral.
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  Coded Logic

  Coded Logic, the only reason I introduced romance and hope in to this conversation is to point out that there are many good things we do that is contrary to evidence.

  The problem here is that you're comparing apples to oranges. "Romance" and "hope" are NOT beliefs, they are complex emotional desires. They do not have to meet the same standards of evidence because romance and hope are subjective experiances. Faith however, is not. Faith is a belief. And our beliefs inform our actions. Without having a good understanding of how the world works, we can't make good decisions to promote human well being.
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  MadGiant

  "MadGiant, morals may be a product of our evolutionary heritage, but they are not logical." -

  From page 2:
  "I am not sure if I understood your post, Morals are a product of reason/survival." - MadGiant

  I still think that morals are a product of reason and survival. We don't have a sense of right, wrong or justice, we developed them within culture and society. And adjust them to ensure survival.

  Reason and logic are two different concepts. The only similarity between reasoning and logic is that they both are types of thinking. Otherwise they are just the opposite.

  Reason is subject to personal opinion, whereas logic is an actual science that follows clearly defined rules and tests for critical thinking.

  "Even athiests attempt to break through a believer's mental armour by pointing out that some of the activities of the OT god are morally reprehensible." -

  I agreed, but is thru reason. I know that many situations can lead you to accept a choice using logic instead of reason. But I think morals is a product reason/survival.

  Ismael
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  Band on the Run

  Let us be honest. Most belief is based on social class and peer pressure. I have faith in Jesus, knowing that if I were born elsewhere on earth, I might be an atheist or Buddhist. Jesus is god for most of the Western world. He is not so popular in Asia or Africa. I never want to get involved in arguments about God. They are silly and accomplish nothing. My inner self is stunned by how many people have no realization that faith is determined by culture. Within a culture, elites will be selective in what they believe. Poorer people will totally fall apart if challenged.

  I figure the Vulcans, angels, or Christ will enlighten these people. It is not my job. I have no legitimacy with them. If you politely mention reading materials, you are hated even more. If you mention Higher Criticism, they retreat to an even m ore primitive place. I read The Last Temptation of Christ in college. One day I am watching tV and I hear that Martin Scorcese has made a film. I could not wait to get in line. Sadly, Cardinal Cooke of NY ordered Catholics not to see it. He had no idea what it was. The subway was too slow so I splurged on a taxi. I brought along the day's New York Times to read during the wait. Cardinal Cooke brought out many informed people. We were all wearing Ralph Lauren and reading the Times, the New Yorker,or best selling novels. There was a picket line protesting the film of Southern Europeans. They were wearing the worst polyster I have ever seen. The contrast was too great. The film is extrordinary.

  People may change over time. Those protestors were not irrational. They are as worthy as anyone else.
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  jgnat

  I would suggest that faith is similarly a complex emotional desire. Similarly all three are illogical.
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  jgnat

  Mad Giant, we may be in another semantic dance. I equate reason and logic as the same thing. I am using the same region of my brain and conducting the same activities to come to a conclusion.
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  Qcmbr

  Given that, at least in Christian teaching, Evidenceless Faith is a virtue (" Jesus saith unto him, 'Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.'") rated higher than evidence based belief:

  • Evidence = Verifiable Facts
  • Faith = Belief + Unverifiable Assertions
  • Unverifiable Assertions = Ignorance + Lucky Truth / Untruth
  • Faith = Belief + Ignorance + Lucky Truth / Untruth

  Is it moral , when given two sets of information, to choose the least likely to be true as the basis for action?

  Is it immoral , given two information sets, to persuade others including minors to privilege the least likely to be true?

  Is it moral to claim to have faith if in fact one is relying upon subjective evidence?
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  jgnat

  Is stupid equivalent to immoral?

  Also, given the example of "helping" in ignorance as immoral, I disagree. The example is preventing a parent from cutting off a child's arm, not knowing that the arm is gangrenous. The courts distinguish between overt acts of harm, and those that are unintentional.