http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20140831.aspx
If the US wants war, they can pay for it and fight it. World peace thru budgeting constraints would still be world peace.
metatron
Why Europe Will Let Ukraine Go
by metatron 22 Replies latest jw friends
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kaik
Europeans NEVER cared about one another. Never. When Czechoslovakia (or Hungary) was attacked by Soviet Union, nobody in Europe rised a single voice of support against injustice. Not single time during cold war. It was only Reagan who dared to push Soviet limits. All Europeans complied and many would like to return into decades when USA paid for the Western defenses, while East was brutally oppressed by colonial power. When I was in Western Europe before 1989 and I had to hear from the westerners how dare these fascist, ungreatfull Czechoslovaks are for opposing glorious empire like Soviet Union that meant so well for peace and stability of Europe. Who cared in Europe when Prague or Budapest was littered with burned bodies and destroyed buildings after 1956 or 1968 invasions? What did Europe do when Serbian sieged Sarajevo for 3 1/2 yearsthat caused deaths of tens of thousands people there in the 1990s? Europe did nothing for stop rise of Hitler or Stalin. Europe would do absolutely nothing for Ukraine. If Russki will bomb Kiev, they will not care a bit. Europeans always kissed Russia; before 1989 it was the extreme bolsheviks; today it is right wing parties that see in Moscow a salvation from decadent West. The biggest supporter today of Russian's takeover of Eastern Europe is Germany. Its policy since 1990 was compliance towad Russia and they were the biggest opponent NATO and EU expansions toward eastern Europe. They opposed moving US bases there as well. The biggest opponent of both Russia and Germany is Poland and they know why due experiences from 1939. American press notices in this article something what is know in Central and Eastern Europe for 25 years:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/opinion/why-germans-love-russia.html?_r=0
It is not American problem to solve European mess and I sometimes hope that for once Russia or Arabia will take over entire continent and Americans would not have to lift a finger a bit. They would deserve it.
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prologos
I fail to understand the sympathy of ANY german for Russia after the rampage through eastern Europe of the red army, the berlin blockade, the iron courtain wall.
They must have a death wish. but
the American did not spy on Merkel for nothing, a sad turn of events.
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kaik
I know Prologos you are German. I never understand why Germany after 1945 wanted Eastern Europe to suffer under Soviet boots. When Czechoslovakia was occuppied by Soviets in 1968 almost universally majority West German took it with delight as an act well done. Germans loved to see Czechoslovakia struggling to get freedom and succumbed to Brezhnev. These articles were published in West German press and were known in Czechoslovakia after 1968. My stepdad lost his brother in August 1968 and was never seen again, probably ended in some of the mass graves.Tens of thousands refugees from the Soviets were treated as traitors by the Western Left because they refused to live in worker paradise. Until 1989 West Germany did nothing to help overthrowing communist regime unlike UK, USA, and certain degree France. I remember Mitterrand in Prague in the 1980's defying commies to get V. Havel released from prison. I grew up in Soviet occupied country where only hope was USA. After 1989 the region struggled with post-communist disintegration which was accompanied by deep economic recession. Germany undermined many integration projects from the beginning. Highway between Germany and Czech Republic could be completed in 1997 when it ended on the Czech side, but this did not happen until 12 years later. No energy or utility grid is integrated between both countries. Germany is the biggest opponent of USA bases in Czech Republic and Poland. It heavily pressured Polish government to abandon Ukraine. Kohl and many other German officials are considered working for Russians. Czech, Polish, Ukraine press compare present situation with 1939 when Germany with Russia divided the continent under the sphere of influences. American press is catching it as well so does British. Without USA and NATO, Russia will take over Ukraine as whole, then Baltics, and afterwards Central Europe East Germany. Russian leadership also dreams in incorporating Balkans and Finland as well under its control. And Germany supports its.
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prologos
Kalk, I personally had a brick* in my hand to confront Russian tanks in berlin on June 17, 1953 and left Europe shortly after. Of course germany was totally powerless to do anything to dwarth The Comunist domination. but I am apalled of any german supporting a development that would mean Europe sinking back into single ethnic, dogma. darkness domination.
Of course naive religionists will not be faring well.
I really thought that the future looked brighter, we would not need to fight again.
Notwithstanding Putin's way with words, it is HIS actions that remind me of the incremental border violations by Hitler's ,--culminating in a necessary strong stand against him.
* this battle was fought in the streets ringed with bombed-out ruins, with bricks heaped a story high.
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TheOldHippie
"Europeans NEVER cared about one another. Never. When Czechoslovakia (or Hungary) was attacked by Soviet Union, nobody in Europe rised a single voice of support against injustice. Not single time during cold war."
On what planet do you live?
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kaik
Old hippie, tell me what country in Europe did anything against Soviet oppression after 1945? I do not recall any foreigner help for Hungary or Czechoslovakia when Soviets tanks rode in the streets fo Prague and Budapest. Call for help from both national radio stations are well known and recorded, and were televized into the living rooms all over world... Please enlight me when did any European country after 1945 helped any other European country from oppression? The Eastern Block felt appart only after USA pressurred Moscow under leadership of Reagan. What did Europe did for Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo in 1990's? What I recall it was again USA that got involved to stop the war and ethnic clensing. Poor Dutch could not surrender Bosnia more quickly to Serbs. What is Europe doing today when Russia is carving Ukraine?
Prologos. I do not think Germany [Western] could do anything after WWII in opposing communsim, but indeed did very little for freedom and democracy after 1970 with its Ostpolitics normalizing ties to USSR. This is much different from UK and France in the 1980's that behaved definitelly braver than Kohl. Until 1970 West Germany and Czechoslovakia did not recognized each other, so was pointless for Prague in 1968 to appeal for help there. However, in the past 25 years German politics is driven by appeasement toward Russia and currently pleasing Putin. Even American politics and press is aware of it When NATO expanded in 1999 there was big desire to move american bases into Czech Republic and Poland but it was forbidden by Germany due EU enlargement in 2004. American Republican government under Bush was aware of German-French desire to please Russia. Both European powerhouses were angry that Eastern Europe sided with Bush and USA. I only see USA as the only guaranee that Prague, Warsaw or Budapdest does not fall under Russian oppression. Germans and French would be glad to hand entire region to Moscow without hessistation. I believe Russia will take over entire Eastern Block and all countries east of Germany will be colonozied by Moscow with blessing of Berlin, Paris and Brussel.
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prologos
Kalk, having lived the last half century in North America I was not aware of that power shift.
If America is not willing to defend Europe, the future battlefield, heaven forbid, the populace better feed the bear to keep it in its cage.
The Us will not trade Manhattan for Kiev, so nuclear arms are useless.
why does germany not treat the eastern countries Poland CR, the Baltics as better puffer states?
Did not in the Helsinki (not Versailles) peace treaty Germany sign away all claims to all it's lost territories and populations?
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kaik
Prologos, USA was the only western country that was politically supportive of the region democratic transition to extreme displesure of Germany and France. This is also reason why Rumsfeld called this block as a New Europe and these countries were the biggest supporter of USA in the past 25 years. NATO expansion happened before EU enlargement, which would never happen if these countries would be neutral. USA was considering moving its bases from Germany to east for 15-18 years, but this had not materialized to constant threat of Germany against them. Radar site outside Prague and anti-ballistic defense missile system were scrapped after Germany threatened blocking EU expansion to East in 2004. Navy base in Stettin and Constanza have not happened either. 25 years after the fall of communism no single NATO base is in former Warsaw Block. All thanks to major European powers and their power play to whom is cheap energy supply from Russia more precious than freedom and democracy in Europe. Today I am witnessing a land grab of totalitarian Russia, and disintegration of democratic principles through entire region. The Munich syndrome is alive and well through all these small countries that cannot control their destiny.
I expect Kiev to fall followed by Baltics. Where is the next target is wild guess, but Russia does not hide intention to take over entire Europe which had controlled in one point in the past 200 years. Since the time of Napoleon, every European capital east of Paris was one point occupied by Russia and every Slavic country was enslaved by it. This is also reason why Poles, Czechs, Slovenes, Croats have extreme causion to it bordering with universal dislike and rejection. As someone who remember the Soviet troops in the streets, I will never forget it until I die. And I am certainly not interested to relive it either. In Czech Republic there is saying that postwar generation was born under Moscow boot and will retire into it at the old age.
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prologos
kalk, so what are you doing there? they have Pilsener in North Amerika!