I don't know about anyone else, but I'm just following this conversation silently with rapt attention. You guys know world history from personal experience. That's a far cry from reading about it in the history books. Especially as a born-in JW, and an American, I never learned anything about European history anyway. It seems like our lack of public interest in European affairs might be a liability for Americans in general.
Why Europe Will Let Ukraine Go
by metatron 22 Replies latest jw friends
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kaik
Prologos, I have left long time ago, and became a citizen of different country. I do not have whatsoever any reason nor desire to live in Europe. However, I am not oblivious to the situation there and I travel there regularly. If Russia retakes Europe, which I am betting it will, I only feel sorry for the people who desired so much to be free only to have their dream vanquished.
Apognophos. I wrote extensively in my undregrad and postgrad on situation in post-communist world - was active participant of the changes in 1990's - and one of my thesis was comparision of Ukraine to the war in Balkans. I am no suprised with the war, as it was expected 20 years ago. Russia is lead by madman ruling over nation that has messianic complex to control life of its neighbor. There are just too many similarities between interwar Germany and Russia, and as Hitler and Germany had its admirors, so does Russia and Putin. Russia after the collapse of the USSR got the same chance as everyone else. They could build free society as did Poland, but instead they choosed a system based on oppression. I dealt with Russians for 35+ years. While as individals are very nice people, their society demands strong hand where human life means very little. I could not imagine that Merkel would say to present European and world society that 3rd reich's defeat was the biggest mistake in history of Europe. Yet, Russian leadership said it about USSR. They do not care that for Czechoslovak, Hungarians, Yugoslavs, Baltics nations means a history of a brutal oppression and collonization. As a school boy I walked by Soviet tanks with guys pointing guns into us. We choosed to ignore it and I lived as it was a normal routine for most of the 70's. While Soviets troops disappeared from city centers and from Prague's parks, they were in the countryside driving their tank brigades. I walked by homes that were burned by 1968 gunfire and dotted by bullet holes. My father was almost killed in 1968 when he appeared at the Czechoslovak radio station to defend a freedom of speech from the invaders. Later he lost job, pension, military ranks, everything in subsequent purges in the 1970's and died as broken, impoverished man. He and my mom joined the WT cult after Prague Spring because they could not imagine any power that could defeat Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union excpet mighty God Jehovah. It is disgusting that the same fate will happen to Kiev, Riga, Tallin and Villnius and the world does not care.
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Band on the Run
I lived next to a Ukrainian stronghold in NYC. The food was superb. They had a major festival once a year. I knew not much about Russia or the Ukraine. It was the period of Soviet domination. A Chinese friend ask me where Kiev was. There were Kiev signs all over the place. I told her someplace in Russia but I did not know where. A discussion of Chicken Kiev at the Russian Tea Room followed. A Ukrainian girl blurted out that Kiev was in the Ukraine. I yelled that they should not spend any good money on freedom fighters. There was a Ukraine in a few years. It is sad.
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prologos
I hope there is a solution for the longsuffering people of the Russian periphery, and it will come from above, and I do not mean "(the) mighty god jehovah"
I mean like the defeat that the Soviet Union sufferd at the hand of things aeronautical: The Berlin Airlift, supplying 2 million people for nine month wtith food& fuel, and
The Cessna flight out of Finland landing in Red Square pride parade ground in front of the Kremlin, the Lenin Mausoleum.
Russia has great air defenses, witness the Malaysian malaise over the Ukraine, but our hopes are high.
Like kalk I did the two step to put distance between me and the Russians because I too stared mre than once into their gun muzzles:
1) move half way across the globe from them, and
2) invoke The WT's promise of protection by god.
We know now option one is the viable one.
If the west does not fight now, it will be a long battle of retreat. We need not a latter day Chamberlain, but Churchill. Churchill was zealous for a fight, why?
Revenge. to clear his name. he was spoiling since the defeat in Gallipoli. where can the west find such a man, a situation like that?
Se, John McCain , brought down by a Russian SAM and tortured by Russia - supported guards?
guarded comments. because
McCain might be insane.
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kaik
Prologos, I do not think there is whatsoever any hope for Europe and I still wonder why I still care. Would I care if my family would be still there? The war is there and is comming to every EU capital whatever they like it or not. The leadership that envisioned democratic Europe from Brest to Brest or from Atlantic to Ural is long dead. Younger generations does not care and older generation thinks that world around them will revolve along way as it did in 1980's. USA is different country than it was in 1945 and has different priority like China and Islamic terrorism. I keep telling everyone who is in Central Europe, they have the last chance to leave before the war, Putin's dictatorship, and subsequent border closure. Many Europeans desire living under Putin hand because they dislike their "decadent" western democracy. Especially the younger generation that never experienced dictatorship as I and you did and take our freedom for granted. I was in every anticommunist demonstrations in 1988 and 1989 even when I was in WT cult because I disliked communism and I believed that freedom of religion will help WT to spread the "truth". It is sad that freedom and democracy can only last one generation because each subsequent European biogenesis is totally oblivious into defending it.
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Vidiot
kaik - "It was only Reagan who dared to push Soviet limits."
You tell 'em.
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EndofMysteries
It's not that Europe doesn't care, it's that Europe is very smart. Many parts of Europe enjoy a very comfortable way of life. No unemployment, great health, benefits, etc. They know that if they don't do anything, the war mongering industrial complex in USA, with it's 500billion a year+ income, that was throwing a hissy fit because it wasn't getting a raise this year, will be all to happy to donate american lives and tax money so that they can get profit off of this.
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Vidiot
EndofMysteries - "...the war mongering industrial complex in USA, with it's 500 billion a year+ income, that was throwing a hissy fit because it wasn't getting a raise this year, will be all to happy to donate american lives and tax money so that they can get profit off of this."
Gosh. Don't hold back, Ender; tell us how you really feel.
x
(P.S. I actually kind of agree with you.)
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metatron
Amen! The US doesn't care about the Ukraine or Europe - as long as they are obedient vassals. Consider the US Ambassador's "F**k the EU" remark as proof.
This is about empire - specifically, US hegemony being challenged by Russia's program for the world to drop the dollar as a reserve currency and petro-dollar. The BRICS want to set up an alternative financial system. Cameron is being foolish to try to throw Russia out of the SWIFT system as it will only encourage the development of an alternative that may be opaque to the NSA.
If the world rejected US bullying, things would be much better. And that's where we seem to be headed....
metatron
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bohm
This crisis has convinced me EU should think very seriously about a EU army and a EU ballistic missile program; I at least feel expanding the EU further towards the east would be a good idea.
