Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7 (page 10)

Chris Tann

I'm hoping this is my last post on this subject,lol.

Designs- I have shown that many rabbis(jews)viewed the the Messiah the same way early Christians did. Sure, thete are many Jews who interpret those events differently from Christians. However there are many Jews who changed and believe in Jesus as their Messiah. Even Jews in the first century,according to the book of acts. Yes a Christian book says this, I dont believe that just because it is in the NT it isn't reliable. It is an historical document and written as such.

Bar Kokhba is never mentioned because of not conquering, Jesus is followed by millions,even though he didnt even try to reclaim Jerusalem from the Romans. Yes jews and mostly non jews. Just because Jewish teachers taught how they felt the scriptures must be fulfilled,doesn't mean they were correct. God told Moses to make the tabernacle after the pattern he would see, it is representative of whats in heaven. What does the animal blood sacrifices represent? The Messiah.

Kaik- read Psalms 49:6-9 . This tells us that God will receive a ransom for humans to redeem them, but no man can provide such a ransom because the price is beyond their reach. Why? Because they are imperfect. A perfect human can ransom man from the imperfect mans sin ,that is Adam. Jesus was that perfect man.

designs

Chris- As with other Messiah claimants that came along through history their followers dropped off after awhile because each did not fulfill jewish expectations namely a free israel and someone who would bring peace on earth, Jesus certainly did not bring peace on earth, or establish Gan Eden..

As to your interpretation of Psalms 49:6-9 you are still applying Pauline theology mixed with latter day Protestantism into the reading. Go take a class with a Rabbi, they won't bite :D

myelaine

dear designs...

would it be correct to say that there is no proof that isaiah was getting messages from God, transmitting them accurately or that he even existed, there is no collaborating contemporaneous witness to his person. You believe he existed and that he transmitted God's message based on faith. (Even as an atheist!!)

the NT gospels are all collaborating the events leading up to the crucifixion of Jesus and witnesses collaborate each other.

if christians believe isaiah was a prophet of God and he accurately transmitted God's message then why on earth WOULDN'T we believe the gospel testimony?

think about this for a few minutes...from what quarter is OT credibility coming from? Is it islam(who's "prophet" found need to do a re-write to accommodate his new religion) or is it from any other major religion? Who besides the jewish people believes isaiah and supports use of the OT without "evidence" for its veracity? It is christians...it is christians BECAUSE we have a shared faith in the same God. If that wasn't the case then what was the real motivation for gentiles to believe in sin and atonement OR a Messiah. God called us to believe in Him too despite animosity from jewish leaders and religious persecution on the part of roman authorities.

You can think and say whatever you want about what happened back then but it doesn't jive with the "evidence" or reality of Jesus' church.

love michelle

kaik

Chris Tann, any Jew professing a faith in Judaism could not reconcile Jesus with Messiah. This is mutually exclusive. If any person of Jewish faith decided to accept Christianity, he or she cannot claim to be in both faiths. Judaism and Christianity have different theology and beliefs that cannot be combined. Additionally you are trapped within Catholic foundation of Christianity that implemented concept of Original sin, which is foreigner in Judaism and this idea is channeled to various Protestant denominations in Northern America. If there is no original sin, there is no redeemer Jesus to pay your sins away. The centerpieces of Jewish faith is a direct relationship to G-d, not to dead guy to whom Paul assigned a divine attributes.

In the Jewish covenant, Israel is the body created and called by G-d as his tool of redemption to bring a divine reign of fruitation. This is opposite to what Christianity teaches where Jesus filled the role. Jesus did not fullfill messianic expectation of the Jewish nation. He was not king, nor gathered Jews from exile, renewed temple, nor was annointed by prophet. To them he was not priest, king, or prophet. Nothing in Christianity can change that. Redemption in Judaism is centered in love of G-d in soul, mind, and heart; where upholding divine Commandment heals the breech that seperate mankind with from Him. Jews do not seek out to reparing world, but restoring the world through the service to G-d.

michelle, there is also no credibility in NT. Christianity and Judaism does not believe in the same G-d. This is only your illusion as well as many of the Protestant movements around the world. Because Christianity uses texts that were written for Jewish faith, it still does not make Christianity a continuation of Judaism or gave them a divine gift of interpretation of the OT. Christianity corrupted the meaning of it and I am sure the rabbis and Jewsto whom OT is also part of their national and cultural identity for 2500 years understand much better than Protestant Bible preacher.

designs

kaik- Thanks, it needs to be repeated. Keep the classroom open.

designs

Rabbi Nachmanides quiped to King James- that if he had not been raised with the fables of the virgin birth from the time he was a little kid he would never have accepted them as an adult.

Rattigan350

Kaik said: "designs is correct on that that Messiah in Judaism is not represented by Jesus. Jesus was not Mesiah, because he did not fullfill any prophecies what would be expected from king of peace."

I wouldn't go that far. Jesus has fulfilled those prophesies. He did not become king at that time because he was not to become king until 1914, 2520 years

after the kingdom fell.

myelaine

dear kaik...

you said," michelle, there is also no credibility in NT. Christianity and Judaism does not believe in the same G-d. This is only your illusion"...

the Holy Spirit gives both the OT and the NT credibility not Judaism or Christianity both of these religions are part of the outworking of God's plan.

love michelle

designs

Christians try to make that claim of believing in the same God, we certainly made that claim as JWs. Reality is its just not true. Judaism is completely different from Christianity other than a few shared ideals like on Being good to one another.

The Ransom really seperates Jews and Christians. Human sacrifice is a big No No in Judaism, that's one of the lessons in the Abraham and Isaac story. It was a turning point in the development of Judaism from its tribal nomadic roots to becoming a civilization.

Chris Tann

Designs and Kaik, you both make some good points. I must admit that I did read the book Why the Jews Do Not Believe in Jesus, ot something like that. It made many of the points you two bring up. I will look further into your claims, doing so with an open mind.

As of now I consider myself a Notsurist, I find good evidence for and against Christianity. I tend ,though to lean toward supporting it. Yes ,you are correct, Judaism and Christianity are very different. I just feel that Jesus fulfilled the law and his way is the new covenant foretold, the next chapter in worship o f God if you will. So thanks for your input and I'll hear from you two another time.

Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7

Share this