HERE'S WHAT JW ELDERS DO TO LITTLE GIRLS

by crawdad2 41 Replies latest watchtower scandals

Hmmm

lastcall, good post. I should probably leave it at that, but I think an answer needs to be provided for the future JW apologists who will undoubtedly resort to the same reasonings as above.
Unanswered questions to amac:
If you think this is not representative of a meeting with elders under these circumstances, perhaps you could share exactly what you think does happen in a typical meeting. At what point does crawdad's story become atypical? The personal questions? The conclusion that there is nothing they can (will) do? The warning not to tell anyone else for fear of shunning? I'm curious.
I asked you a series of brief, easy questions, which you declined to answer, preferring instead, to set up a straw-man. It is the hallmark of a weak argument.
You are right, I'm sure most elder bodies, when approached with a suspected child molestation, will take the supposed victim alone into a room, so they can ask question after question to satisfy their own sexual curiosity,
Neither crawdad nor I said anything about asking these questions for the elders' sexual gratification. Did you need to take it to that extreme to win your argument? If so, then you might ask why that is. If these untrained men (never a woman to do the questioning, to help ease the little girl's anxiety) were asking those questions in a mechanical, yet insensitive way, might not the effect on the little girl be the same?
with absolutely no feelings for the child but only thinking how to get rid of the situation.
Well now you're at least on the right track. This is the point that I got from crawdad, and it mirrors so very many experiences I've read and heard personally. The pathetic thing is, many judicial bodies really think they have the person's best interest in mind, but they must first consider Mother. What results is a mechanical cold-hearedness that further victimizes the abused. Is it intentional? Surely not. But it is so often what you get when you have a group of untrained elders handling these cases in a pharisaical, legalistic manner, with the organization's reputation foremost in mind.
Lady Lee started an excellent thread about believing your own myths, and cognitive dissonance.
The question her to the point of crying (because that's their favorite part!)
Again with the logical fallacies. Crawdad didn't say because that's their favorite part! You added that to make a more easily defeated argument. Surely you don't have a problem with the statement that she would be questioned to the point of crying? In my old hall they used to call it "the crying room." So what do you disagree with? Oh yeah, you disagree with the statement that you inserted. The words that you put in someone's mouth are suddenly "delusional". Nice debating technique. [insert sarcastic eye-rolling thingie here]
and then leave her hanging for 5 minutes just to tell her "Sorry, no witnesses." And they conclude with
I understand that you're not good at answering direct questions (JR Brown better watch his back) but maybe you could enlighten me as to what part of these statements you find so hard to believe:
You don't think they step out of the room? You think they hash it out in front of the person?
You doubt it takes five whole minutes? How many minutes... four... three?
I don't mean to confuse you with multiple questions, just pick one of them. That would be super.
Oh yeah, if you tell anyone else this, you will DIE!
What's so funny is you thought that by exaggerating, you could make some extreme statement that wasn't believable. Well go watch Dateline, and tell that to Erica and all the others who are threatened by spiritual death, followed "any day now"" by literal death for causing divisions, speaking out against a brother, or whatever the excuse du jour is.
That is the picture you seem to attempt to portray in the initial post, albeit through semantic implications.
It seemed to me--and I could be wrong here--that he was relaying a real-life experience that happened to someone he knew. If that's the case, it is not meant to portray EVERY SINGLE MEETING, WITH EVERY SINGLE GROUP OF ELDERS IN THE WORLD. By taking it to such a silly extreme it's easy to tell yourself that it doesn't happen at all. Congratulations.
Crawdad was doing what all good journalists do... making the story personal. Figures are boring and dont mean anything. A personal story is what will reach people. And if that was a true story, and you decided to utilize a few sad debating tricks to put a notch on your argument belt, I just hope you never find yourself in a position to have to tell a story like that to people.
Get real. If that is the way you feel the majority of elder bodies act, then you are more brainwashed than a die hard JW.
Now I'm more curious than ever. Maybe you could describe your picture of a typical JW elder's meeting. Warning, if it involves such pathetic phrases as "spirit-directed" or "prayerfully considered" you wont find many buyers for your snakeoil here.
Hmmm
crawdad2

hi xena,
in my opinion you are very wrong about the numbers.
girls come forward all the time, and they are shunned into silence.
and their molesters get away with it....and if other elders try to get involved in it, they are silenced by the circuit overseer....and it's all kept from the congregation...........the girl is then labeled as a trouble maker, liar, and
later the girl gets disfellowshipped for something.
in my opinion there is a big big problem in the watchtower organization with that.
plmkrzy

I was a JW for many years and so are my parents and so were my grandparents.
I remember when little kids would be taken to the bathroom for spankings. I can remember one in particular that stuck in my mind even after all these years. A new mother spanking her baby that was about 2 months old. I remember BEING SHOCKED!. This particular memory is from an incodent that took place in the ladies room at the KH in the city of Valinda in 1965. I left the bathroom went back to my seat and told my mother what I saw it bothered me so much.
I also remember that kids were spanked everywhere. Neighbor kids. Yep even neighbor kids. And kids were given swats in school for misbehaving.
That was typical within our entire society at one time.
Like I said and I'll say it again. I can remember the times when I saw a child getting spanked at a KH.
Out of over 100 people in the KH I can count on one hand those who physically hit thier children.
MOST of the JWs that I know, and that is an enormous amount of people, do not physically hit thier kids.
There seems to be a lot of anxiety in the air right now due to the Dateline episode and there will probably no doubt be some flame wars up and coming until folks calm down.
Just remember or at least take in to consideration the kind of impression you might like to leave on those lurking.
The public in general is not made up of realy stupid people living in bubbles.

[email protected]
LittleToe

I Think Xena said it best, when she stated:
"we don't need sensationalism....personally I feel it just detracts from the REAL message."
I was a JW elder, and I never did that, nor saw anyone else conduct themselves that way.
Any statistic would be complete speculation.
As someone who received the strap, at school, I know only too well that spankings were not just a thing found in KH's.
There's no excuse for molestation (and my personal belief is that they should be strung up by their b*lls), but lets stays focused here, huh?
amac

Unanswered questions to amac
I didn't answer them because I didn't want to waste my time debating someone who is making blanket implications about over 70,000 men...but since you insist...
At what point does crawdad's story become atypical? The personal questions?
No, I'm sure personal questions are asked to determine the scenario.
The conclusion that there is nothing they can (will) do?
No, I'm sure many have reached that conclusion.
The warning not to tell anyone else for fear of shunning?
No, I'm sure that has happened as well, in, more or less, different words.
which you declined to answer, preferring instead, to set up a straw-man. It is the hallmark of a weak argument.
It wasn't an argument, it was a satirical response to emphasive the absurdity of adding implication to simple facts.
Neither crawdad nor I said anything about asking these questions for the elders' sexual gratification. Did you need to take it to that extreme to win your argument?
See comment to previous quote.
This is the point that I got from crawdad, and it mirrors so very many experiences I've read and heard personally
And exactly how many experiences would that be? I guess it must be high enough to feel that the majority of 70,000 elders act that way. Please reread Lastcall's post that you seemed to enjoy. They made a very good point of applying personal experience as a generalization.
You added that to make a more easily defeated argument. Surely you don't have a problem with the statement that she would be questioned to the point of crying? In my old hall they used to call it "the crying room." So what do you disagree with? Oh yeah, you disagree with the statement that you inserted. The words that you put in someone's mouth are suddenly "delusional". Nice debating technique. [insert sarcastic eye-rolling thingie here]
Again, it wasn't an argument...I was mocking the exagerrated implications of the initial post. And your bit about crying...there's lots of reasons why people cry...it doesn't automatically mean that the elders were inconsiderate bastards that questioned her to the point of crying simply out of their lack of consideration.
I understand that you're not good at answering direct questions
Has this been good enough for you?
maybe you could enlighten me as to what part of these statements you find so hard to believe:
You don't think they step out of the room? You think they hash it out in front of the person?
You doubt it takes five whole minutes? How many minutes... four... three?
I don't mean to confuse you with multiple questions, just pick one of them. That would be super.
I really enjoy how you attempt to mock my intelligence, yet you were completely unable to see the meaning of my posts. I don't disagree or agree with any of those, I'm sure every JC meeting is a little different and I'm not going to attempt to generalize them all into one set of actions. THE BIT I DISAGREE WITH IS THE IMPLICATIONS MADE BY THIS THREAD THAT ALL ELDERS ARE HEARTLESS BASTARDS ONLY DOING WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE SOCIETY. Got it?
It seemed to me--and I could be wrong here--that he was relaying a real-life experience that happened to someone he knew. If that's the case, it is not meant to portray EVERY SINGLE MEETING, WITH EVERY SINGLE GROUP OF ELDERS IN THE WORLD. By taking it to such a silly extreme it's easy to tell yourself that it doesn't happen at all. Congratulations.
Well it seems to me that when you start a thread titled "HERE'S WHAT JW ELDERS DO TO LITTLE GIRLS " and then proceed to paint a picture of inconsiderate, heartless men, upsetting little girls, that would be what I call......ummmm....let's see.....maybeeee....a GENERALIZATION! That's what I disagree with.
amac

And by the way, nice posts LittleToe, plmkrzy and Xena.
Sabine

Howdy Crawdad!
I wanted to address two points, first the amount of abuse going on...who can really tell how widespread it is? I can only tell you from my personal experience of over 35 years in the JWs, listed are people I knew PERSONALLY, who told me their story, not hearsay:
1. My husbands uncle, former bethelite, molested many kids, and I was only told of this at a family dinner when he was holding my then two year old daughter, by my nervous father in law.
2. A sister in my congregation that was "marked" because she was trying to block her father from being reinstated after he molested her, her sister AND her brother.
3. A sister that moved into my congregation after her son committed suicide because he felt helpless trying to stop his sister from being further molested by the bookstudy conductor.
4. A sister that I met after my daughter's death, she told me that her daughter was molested by a young brother and it took 10 years for him to be disfellowshiped.
5. Two years ago (the last congregation I attended) a brother gets reinstated and the sister in example #4 tells me he's a child molester and not to let my son go to the bathroom alone. Of course the elders didn't warn us, since we were new and didn't know what this brother's history was. He was later re-arrested because he moved across the street from an elementary school.
6. Ex-jw I met in person told me about her father molesting kids while he was an elder, and I met one of his victims in person (her cousin).
7. Ex-jw I met from this board told me her son was molested.
8. I was studying with a beautiful young girl from El Salvador and one of the local elders took an "interest" in her, taking her with him to play golf (she was about 13 at the time) gone for hours at a time with this young girl unescorted. Turns out he was df'd for sexual "misconduct" with this young girl.
Just thought I would list these examples for people that say it must be a very isolated case.
My second point is about elders talking to little girls alone...while I was never molested, I was talked to alone several times when I was a child. One time in particular that I remember is when an elder talked to me in a car during service. We were alone and he was asking me about my mother's past. She was divorced twice, and she and I had different last names. I remember telling him he should ask HER what her marital status was. Even as a kid I remember thinking that it was very inappropriate for him to be asking a 12 year old about her mother's past.
And of course, my last experience with elders interogating a young woman was when they came to talk to my daughter while my husband and I were out of town. They questioned her about what she and her boyfriend were doing alone, heavy or light kissing, etc. Apparently they made her feel so awful about herself that she took her own life the next morning....
So for all you lurkers out there, yes there are some very good people in the JW organization, but like in ALL religious organizations, there are some people that are sick, unloving, pathetic excusses for human beings too. And unfortunately, many use the cloak of being an elder and misuse their power and influence to hurt many innocent people that were mislead into thinking Jehovah's Witnesses are somehow exempt from evil because it's the only spirit annointed organization God is using in our day.
amac

So for all you lurkers out there, yes there are some very good people in the JW organization, but like in ALL religious organizations, there are some people that are sick...
I fully agree, and because of this, I would never paint a picture that all the elders are bad.
And of course, my last experience with elders interogating a young woman was when they came to talk to my daughter while my husband and I were out of town. They questioned her about what she and her boyfriend were doing alone, heavy or light kissing, etc. Apparently they made her feel so awful about herself that she took her own life the next morning....
That is absolutely awful! I am sorry to hear that. But are you sure that is the reason she took her life? That seems odd that a lone incident like that would push someone to suicide.
crawdad2

hi amac,
i see your points, as well as xenas, little toe, and plmcrzy.
HI SABINE!!!!!
amac, yes..... i'm sorry, but i do find most jw elders are ultimately only interested in the approval of the headquarters........the ones that have compassion and justice and backbone, and good character, leave the organization...
snakes like brown make it all the way to the top.
outnfree

amac,
That is absolutely awful! I am sorry to hear that. But are you sure that is the reason she took her life? That seems odd that a lone incident like that would push someone to suicide.
A lone remark like "are you sure that is the reason" makes ME want to haul off and slap you silly, but, hey, that's just me...[>:(]
((((((((((Sabine))))))))))))
I am very sorry to learn about your daughter's suicide. You sound like the kind of person that people trust and confide in. I hope you have had others in your life with whom you feel comfortable who are able to be sounding boards for you and your husband with your great loss.
outnfree

HERE'S WHAT JW ELDERS DO TO LITTLE GIRLS

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