by Pathofthorns 40 Replies latest watchtower scandals
drrahcir yarrum's post is an example of what I mean. I have no such agenda whatsoever. I respect his/her right to express himself, his agenda, but hell if he or anyone else is going to establish or decide on mine!
Ps. If this web site is ONLY as he puts it, a "group wishing to call attention to the lies and inconsistencies of the organization" I'm permanently out of here!
The "Silentlambs group" should not be confused with the rest of us unwashed masses who may have jumped on the bandwagon. I haven't read all of Bill's writings, but I'd like to see some proof of his split or hidden agenda.
Some people who hate the WT have smelled the blood in the water, but to say that Bill and Barbara have organized an effort to take shots at the WT "on the backs of children" seems very inaccurate and unfair to them. Apostates adopted them, they didn't adopt us. (I'm not even sure if Bill disagrees with the society doctrinally; on blood, etc...)
As for the "anti-WT" writings on his web site, are you referring to the testimonials from victims? If a person finds his site, and feels that finally they have a place they can speak out, should Bill censor their comments, stifle them the way they've always been stifled, so he isn't labelled anti-WT? Guess what... he's going to be labeled anti-WT no matter what he says. The second he said "we have a problem here," he was labeled an apostate. To silence these victims in favor of the strongly indoctrinated JWs who visit the site would only compound their victimization.
Path, I understand where you're coming from, but you've painted the people who started Silentlambs with a very broad brush. The "destroy the WT at all costs" brigade doesn't represent the vast majority of we apostates, let alone the Silentlambs group.
Hmmm
morrisamb:
I'm absolutely baffled by your response to my post. I in no way attacked you or accused you of having an agenda. This sight has untold examples of people who have a myriad of reasons for no longer being Jehovah's Witnesses. There are some who post here who still are Jehovah's Witnesses and defend them at every turn.
If you are leaving this sight because of what I posted, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. I don't even want to guess what your agenda might be. The "group" I was referring to in my post was "Silent Lambs", not this forum. This forum is, last I heard, open to all opinions, for and against the JW's.
I was referring to this: If the work of Silent Lambs creates a warning signal in the mind of just one person, who might be persuaded to join the Watchtower cult, then they have served a valuable purpose. IF WHAT EACH OF US SAYS IN THIS FORUM, INFLUENCES JUST ONE PERSON NOT TO RUIN THEIR LIVES BY BECOING A WATCHTOWER SLAVE THEN WE WILL HAVE DONE OUR GOOD DEED FOR THE DAY.
I'm pretty good with English, and that last line was referring to this forum.
I wouldn't leave because of "a" post. My god, yours was lamblike in comparison to some of them here!
I wasn't attacking you and I didn't think you were attacking me. My point was that if Simon's web site's agenda is synonomous with your above quoted last line, then I'm out of here.
I know it isn't and I also know not everyone who posts here is "out to get" the Witnesses.
PS. The door did nick me but a little pain never hurt anyone.
Path,
I just have a few things to say about what you have said here.
The first being that I am glad you used the word "we" when you wrote these words.
At least you included yourself in what you are saying.Otherwise I would want to jump through my computer and ring your neck!
You must understand that the circumstances made it impossible for Silentlambs and group to be free of these types of accusations.
If you really think about it, the only way that Silentlambs and the rest of the group could possibly be completly free of such accusations of having a mixed aganda is if they had never been JWs or connected to them in any way.
But then you would run into another problem,
No one that's not emotionally connected and understands what's really going on here with this issue would have ever lifted a little finger to help these victims!
We are doing the best we can do under the circumstances and we have to continue doing what we know is right no matter what people accuse us of.There was no way to have a completly unbiased group doing this work.
And one more thing that I want you to remember is that it is wrong of you or anyone else to judge an entire group's motives as being the same. We are individuls each with our personal feelings and agendas.You can't read minds.
I know there are some who are angry and may fantasize about the downfall of the WT but if you took the time to find out why you would realize their feelings are legitimate.
You seem to want to ignore the pain and suffering many have been through and expect perfection and want to act like they are wrong for feeling the way they do.They have a right to their personal feelings.
Some would be appeased at a change in WT policy and I am sure others decide to take it farther.Silentlambs has no control over this.
SO what?It does not change the cold hard facts in this issue.
One more thing.Silentlambs is a supportgroup for victims.Even if WT changes it's policy the need for this group is still there.The victims don't dissapear if policy changes.These people still need help.
I think you need to try to understand what silentlambs is all about.It's not just about changing Wt policy.
ChiChi
"As for the safety of children, you stated that no children are truly safe in a cult. Actually, no children are truly safe anywhere in the world and I can't see a way to bring universal safety about."
At least "anywhere" in the world we are not afraid of being shunned by family members for going to the police. That is the big difference IMHO.
Lilacs
Excellent point Lilacs. I was trying to illustrate that there is no absolute safety anywhere, but that doesn't change the fact that we can still work to change policies that cause even more harm and result in additional victimization.
Dana
It seems the little man is playing games again. I find it extremely interesting this recycled topic would be raised the morning of the day Dateline is to air. I have addressed these false allegations several weeks earlier yet path seems to have a "short" memory. I will repost what went up then:
. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=26635&site=3
I have watched the intentional effort by Pathofthorns to defend WT Policy and create misinformation regarding the silentlambs effort. As you continue to attack with lies and misinformation a meaningful effort to protect children I have to wonder do you have any conscience at all? Are you being paid by wt for your lies? Why do you continue to attack a position that simply does not exist? Why do you create boundaries for silentlambs and question them when you know as well as I that we do not stand or take that position?
In your last post you wrote the following:
“I would agree that the authorities should be contacted if any child IS being abused or in a dangerous home environment.”
This is a contradiction from what you have stated in the past, you have always held the position wt policy was the right course in letting it be a personal decision. WT makes no distinction between current and past molestation it is always optional to report the crime to authorities. Now you want to have it both ways-busted.
You wrote:
“But I think we need to keep in mind that most of these people who have been molested or abused had this occur several years in the past when they were children.”
This also is a misleading statement, a large portion of molestations are reported when children tell their parents in real time, not when they became adults. “Most” is a dead wrong statement and implies that the majority of reported molestations involve adults. If that were true then why do we have child services in every county in this country? It is mainly children who report molestation, NOT adults.
You wrote:
“At some point these individuals attempt to come to terms with what happened. They may confide in someone and begin to talk about what happened to them. What the Silentlambs group appears to be suggesting is that if an elder were to hear this information he should immediately report the matter to the authorities whether the victim wishes this to be done or not.”
This is an outright lie and this thought has never been part of the solution to wt policy. Silentlambs requests on any report of molestation that the victim be encouraged to go to the police first BEFORE reporting to the BOE. This avoids the elder investigation clouding a real police investigation. If this step was enacted there would be no need for WT Legal or elders to even have to worry about reporting, the family would now be empowered to take appropriate action. Now that power is taken away from them.
You wrote,
“From what Bill posted earlier on this thread, it would seem that in actual practice he takes exactly the same position as the WT in leaving it up to the victim to decide whether to go to the authorities. Unless Bill Bowen reports all crimes that come to his attention I would be mistaken.”
---------------------
quote:
I have talked to many victims who have never reported their abuse, I simply encourage them to talk about it to counslers, close friends, or report the matter on the sl website. The more they learn they can speak out the more likely they are to report the crime.
---------------------
Once again lies and misinformation, elders are authorized to conduct extensive investigations into child molestation allegations to determine wrongdoing. This should not be done before a police investigation as elders are totally untrained when it comes to knowing how to conduct an investigation of child molestation allegations. WT does not encourage a family to go to the police unless they live in a mandatory reporting state, of which there are few. In cases outside of this scenario JW’s are clearly DISCOURAGED from reporting the crime. They cannot tell anyone in the congregation with the risk of being charged with slander, if they report to the police they are viewed as not “waiting on Jehovah” and going outside the organization for help. To infer or imply that I take the “same position as WT” on reporting is a flat out insult to everything silentlambs stands for. WT policy is and continues to be proven wrong, for anyone to represent it otherwise means they are either extremely stupid or have an agenda in WT interests.
In the hundreds of cases that have been brought to my attention each person is always encouraged to report the matter to the police, each person is always encouraged to get needed counseling and therapy. We are willing to help provide any material or assistance to prosecute child molesters. I am not charged by home office to conduct a judicial investigation and examine every detail of what happened. Elders do not do what I suggest to victims, they cover for WT Legal. To suggest any comparison is also an insult to the silentlambs organization as it is not true.
You wrote:
“The fact that many states don't have mandatory reporting laws is proof that the matter is not black or white.”
Lies, Lies, Lies, ALL STATES HAVE MANDATORY REPORTING OF CHILD MOLESTATION IT IS A CRIME. IT IS BLACK AND WHITE.
You wrote:
“Why leaving it to the victim to go to the authorities is wise in the majority of these cases where the abuse happened in the past is because it is the victim's testimony that will be required to build a case. It is the victim who may indeed be 'victimized' again in the courtroom through harsh cross-examinations.”
Your comments are made simply scare victims from coming forward. The police determine how strong a victim is to testify. The courts are very sensitive to not allowing a victim to be revictimized before a jury. Also in the outside event the judge allows a defense lawyer to be abusive it causes the jury to rule for the victim and works to the accused disadvantage, again to imply otherwise smacks of misinformation.
You wrote,
“A victim may have made much progress in moving on from what happened and this fragile recovery could be set back as they are forced to relive the events that happened for the court in the often slim hopes of a conviction. Sure, a victim may have done their civic duty, but at what price?”
What a wicked assumption! Coming forward is a healing event, facing down and reporting the molester is a positive outcome that makes a person stronger. When they speak out they find they do and will have support. They for the first time often feel they are able to move on from the molestation affects on their lives. The “price” is to their advantage and healing yet you would encourage them to not take this important step, shame on you.
You wrote:
quote:
when you do not report a child molester and he or she molests another child you now share in the crime.
“How does a statement like this make the majority of victims feel who have not reported the crime committed against them? Are the victims criminals now?”
That statement helps victims to see the real issue at stake and the importance of protecting children who will be future victims. Your statement encourages them to keep the matter hidden, that is wrong and it protects the pedophile.
You wrote:
“I would venture to say it is families that are more often than not covering over abuse while it is occuring and indefinitely after it has occurred. I think it is unacceptable for any parent to cover over for abuse on the part of a mate or another relative or anyone. Why have we been overlooking the parent's responsibility in all of this?”
Your implication is once again false. "Families" do not cover up abuse when they are Jehovah’s Witnesses, WT forces them to cover the abuse by the exercise of WT Policy. To try and blame it on the parents now is much like when the Society blamed us for 1975. That dog won’t hunt. If parents were empowered by WT policy to report the crime of child molestation then silentlambs efforts could be better placed in simply supporting victims of molestation. Wt refuses to make any adjustment but to hold to present Policy. The fault is with the GB who directs the organization, they know children are being hurt yet they refuse to take proper action. When they are exposed Jw’s and the whole world will see them for what they have proven themselves to be. “By their fruits you will recognize these men.”
Your fruits put you in much the same category. You create positions that do not exist, accuse silentlambs of things they have never said, provide twisted arguments that defend the current WT Policy on child molestation. Then you cut and run saying you hate WT. Your fruits prove otherwise.
You wrote:
“Because we hate the WT. Run WT, Run”
Yet another lie, I nor anyone else who works with silentlambs hates WT or Jehovah’s Witnesses. We hate the fact they protect child molesters and hope policy will change to protect all JW children. “Run WT run” is what WT Legal will do when brothers and sisters as well as everyone else are educated to how WT Policy is hurting children, they will require the proper policy to take effect. When needed changes come JW’s have the freedom to practice their religion as any other recognized religion in the USA. As stated earlier silentlambs remains neutral with regard to doctrinal issues, we simply stick to helping victims of child molestation.
The long posts that you make to the innuendo and twists of logic have a strange similarity to “friend” who stopped posting several months ago. I encourage anyone to review the exchange between “friend” and “focus” that went for several hundred pages. The reasoning and logic of “friend” closely follows your current posting and challenges to silentlambs. I wonder if there is not a link? You have never contacted silentlambs privately but only challenge publicly, you never respond to clarifying explanations, instead, continue to attack positions you create that simply do not exist. I refuse to waste further time and effort to argue with your insipid logic, but I think the time taken to answer your recent post will help most readers to form their own conclusions as to what your “real” agenda is.
In the future when you try to restart misdirection posts on silentlambs issues I will simply repost this thread.
It seem the little man is playing games again. I find it extremely interesting this recycled topic would be raised the morning of the day Dateline is to air.
SL, please tell us what kind of "man" has led everyone for months to believe that the Dateline Program was going to be one hour in length, then waits to the very day of the Program's airing to casually mention that it will only be 30 minutes long?
SL, please tell us when you were planning to let us know that the Rodriguez lawsuit had been thrown out of Federal Court?
Path, thanks for sticking your neck out on this board. You may very well be the only poster here who completely maintains honesty and integrity.
I know for a fact that Bill did not tell me it was going to air for 1 hour. He told me a long time ago nothing about 1 hour - just two segments - which is what happened.
Never the less you may be right and if that is the case then all I have to say is you are damn lucky it is two whole segments and they are actually giving the segments a lot of promos on NBC. If I was running NBC - I wouldn't give you the time of day seeing there is only a supposed million of you JWs in a 284 million country. It took Bill and others to convince them to run with this story that has major lawsuit consequences for all parties.
WRT the Erica lawsuit - yeah you have a point. But then again Bill has to focus other stuff too - like a lot of other press people, candle vigils. Don't know if you know but he was up to all hours of the night last night. Maybe he didn't think it was a big deal. From a legal point it is not a big deal. But from an "optics" point it is a big deal if NBC Dateline makes any type of annoucement about it.
Path has his points but I don't know if I fully agree with all of his "opinions".
Respectfully, I really don't like this thread and I really urge Bill, Barb and the others that are going to prepare for more media contacts to leave this thread alone and focus on the real issue of getting there stories out to the public.
hawk
