Hey there, you only shoot kneecaps on tv. In real life it's center of body mass. I doubt that the policeman actually wanted to kill the kid but more often than not, one or two rounds from a 9mm will just make somebody that large mad. Until they finish bleeding out, anyhow.
Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown
by Simon 551 Replies latest social current
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Marvin Shilmer
But they aren't all shot and that is picked up by our Society as a whole. Bernard Madoff wasn't shot for ripping off Billions but the teen will for a few bucks. If you live in a culture that adds some particular insults to your ethnicity, and there are other real or perceived slights to getting ahead anger and frustration grows. Madoff may even get out someday while the teen could face life in prison.
Designs, I'm sorry but that is plain bogus. Madoff, as monstrous of a thief as he was, did not physically engage a law enforcement officer. There is such a thing as defending oneself.
Let me ask you a question. Has it occured to you there is an alternate reason why blacks experience disproportionate interaction with law enforcement? Has it occured to you there is something in black culture that might be furthering and fueling what we see going on?
I think Chris Rock pretty much nailed what we see happening, and when I transpose the same behavior onto other ethinicities I see the same result.
- If you steal you are likely to get arrested and put in jail.
- If you attack someone you're likely to face self-defense.
- If you assault a police officer you're likely to get injured yourself, perhaps even shot.
You can transpose whatever race you want on these things--and others like them--and each time you get the same result regardless of race.
If you want to talk about BIG PICTURE then start talking families giving a crap about raising children so that the Michael Brown's of this world are not raised by thugs who teach them thuggary, and after that start talking about how, in this case, the black community should act to raise itself up rather than waiting for someone else to do it for them, or demanding that someone else do so.
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Marvin Shilmer
Its been just 66 years since a major decision was made regarding race in this country.
Designs, what do you have in mind that has not already been done or tried?
Specifically what "decision" can anyone make that will change the fact that if you steal you are likely to get arrested and if you assault someone you're likely to get hurt yourself and perhaps killed if you attack someone you know has capability to kill you.
If you have specific remedy please spit it out in a good clear and concise sentence.
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designs
Raphael Lemkin worked with the concept we call Cultural Genocide which the UN incorporated in its 1948 Declaration on the Human Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Cultural genicode can preceed physical genocide, it can also be concurrent with the physical demolition of a race or races.
The Americas were built on Cultural Genocide and Physical Genocide. The Indigenous peoples were declared the 'Thugs' of their day which was turned into justification for forced explusion from their very homes and lands. When the 'Savages' pushed back more physical explusion, relocation, and confinement was the response. Any attempt at being free again or to reclaim their own homes and lands was met again and again by physical genocide.
After all how dare the actual original land owners be so uppity and want Equal Rights from their new Masters.
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Razziel
You are trying to draw parallels that don't exist. It's not the same thing, and it's not even in the same ballpark.
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AndDontCallMeShirley
The Americas were built on Cultural Genocide and Physical Genocide.
You just described human history, not just American history. Empires are not built on "playing nice".
And your assertion has nothing to do with what happened in Ferguson.
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Marvin Shilmer
Raphael Lemkin worked with the concept we call Cultural Genocide which the UN incorporated in its 1948 Declaration on the Human Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Cultural genicode can preceed physical genocide, it can also be concurrent with the physical demolition of a race or races.
The Americas were built on Cultural Genocide and Physical Genocide. The Indigenous peoples were declared the 'Thugs' of their day which was turned into justification for forced explusion from their very homes and lands. When the 'Savages' pushed back more physical explusion, relocation, and confinement was the response. Any attempt at being free again or to reclaim their own homes and lands was met again and again by physical genocide.
After all how dare the actual original land owners be so uppity and want Equal Rights from their new Masters.
Designs,
I fail to see whatever point it is you think you’re making. If you have some point please express it plainly so readers don’t have to interpret meaning.
1. In historical terms, HOW was the manner in which European settlers expanded into territory new to them any different than HOW the then occupiers expanded into the same territory?
2. In contemporary terms, WHO exactly are the “Masters” to which you refer? Elected officials? Someone else? WHO?
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Simon
Now, cases. Treyvon was being followed by zimmerman. If some crazy guy was following me I would likely defend myself, too. Zimmerman has proven to be an aggressive hot head and is an idiot. He has a history of violence. He instigated the altercation and then cried foul. Zimmerman was not a cop, but a wannabe cop with anger issues. Zimmerman is a murderer who got away with it because of stand your ground. Comparing that case to this is apples and oranges.
No, he was not! It was proven in court that MZ acted in self defense and that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor. He was a criminal thug, he was not murdered.
But of course it now gets held up as 'an example of black injustice'. This right here is the problem - not knowing what the law is and not knowing what justice means and using bad examples.
Same with that poor kid who got shot by that crazy dude because his music was being played loud. I was happy that dumb ass was convicted. That was unprovoked murder. Again, apples and oranges.
And another good example of the justice system working well. The guy murdered someone and the system put him away. Surely for your theory to be correct he should have walked free? But guess what? The system really does work for all races and is based on the crimes that are committed.
This situation is different. MB was aggressive, had just robbed someone, and was clearly feeling himself already. He acted stupidly by antagonizing the cop, by getting aggressive, by being uncooperative when he was already suspected of the robbery. Had he behaved better, he would still be alive. With what I know of this case, I do not think this cop shot him because he was black, but because he was scared. There are too many conflicting stories. But he was approaching a man who had just robbed a store.
At least for this you can see that the level of personal responsibility for how people act plays a huge role in outcomes. It is not about being black, it is about being criminal and being stupid. But he'll still be added to the roster of future names to reel off for "evidence" of police brutality.
I do question the number of shots fired. He could have taken out a kneecap or two. So I do think excessive force was used. But not necessarily because of racial profiling. And I Am SUPER Sensitive to These Situations Because Of The Things I have witnessed. Because of stories of unnecessary police shootings of black males resulting in death where it shouldn't have happened. But stop comparing Treyvon and that kid that got shot in the car with this situation. They are not the same.
You seems confused as to what are genuine cases to support your idea and which aren't.
Here's the problem I think many have with the way the argument often goes:
"Black people are victimised and are being killed by the police" and then they give TM and MB as examples.
The problem is twofold:
TM and MB cases have been thoroughly debunked as having anything to do with either race or being unlawfully killed. Their deaths were due to their own criminal acts and thuggish behavior. TM wasn't even shot by a cop but it's used to claim the police are shooting black kids. When these cases are held up as the 'best examples' even after they have been debunked then it's unsurprising that many thing "pffft, this is all invented".
The other issue is that 2 or 3 cases (inluding the debunked ones) are used to claim this mountain of a problem exists. They could just as easily be isolated cases that are dealth with correctly by law. There is not a mountain of evidence of any problem but there is solid evidence that some complaints about race are invented. Also, if we allow this kind of sampled-proof then the reverse argument could be used as well - we can prove that black people are the problem and are violent and criminal by holding up a few confirmed cases where they are proven to be.
It would be unfair though. For all the media attention I think the majority of black people are probably as sick of all this nonsense as everyone else is. They are the victims that the criminals in their community target the most and they are the ones most in need of protection by the police and are afraid to testify or give information on crime because of fear of reprisals by the criminal segment of their own people.
The looting and rioting is so sad. It is ignorance and it is pain and anger. It is people taking advantage of a situation who are out for themselves. But reality is profiling does happen to black males, this is real. There is a divide. So anytime a shooting happens, there is doubt. There is suspicion. Comments here about doubting "they" pay taxes and such is an example of this profiling and also is disappointing. There are millions of people who come from poor neighborhoods who aren't black and don't pay taxes. There are millions of middles class black families who pay taxes. And there is definitely racial profiling that places black males on the defensive.
First of all, if lots of poor people don't pay taxes and it's OK to say so then why is it suddenly bad to suggest that the poor people who are black don't pay them?
Second is the issue of racial profiling. If you are a cop in a black neighbourhood then most of the peope you stop are going to be black. You are also going to be stopping people more in a high crime beighbourhood which unfortunately is also more likely to be a black neighbourhood. Having more black people stopped does not mean profiling is happening necessarilly - we've already seen people claiming that 80% of traffic stops of black people in an 85-90% black area shows unfairness (hint: it does, but it shows they are stopped proportionally less than non blacks!).
I actually think profiling does take place but that it would be crazy to stop it. If there were lots of white people of my gender, age, color & build committing crime in my nehighbourhood then I would think the police would be useless idiots if they stopped people purely randomly and I wasn't stopped more often - should I blame the police or the criminal assholes for my woes? We are becoming so conditioned to political correctness that we think it makes sense for the TSA to scrutinize the 80yr old grandmother from wisconsin or the 3yr old toddler fromm vermont instead of the arab guy about to get on the plane. Profiling happens all the time and is a part of law enforcement to protect victims from criminals and to catch offenders.
What is needed are controls to make sure it is happening for a good reason and isn't pre-selecting the crime stats by being more likely to catch criminals of certain races over others. If crime within certain communities is higher than others though then surely it makes sense to target those areas and indirectly that means you are going to be targeting those people.
I do think that the so called 'war on drugs' has made things more difficult. More black people have been caught up in a net that seems more politically and religious-puritanically motivated than real desire for law and order but the police are the ones on the front line who have to enforce the laws that are handed down to them. This fuels resentment and makes their job of policing more difficult as well as making many black men criminals who otherwise wouldn't be which then sets things up for future resentment, removes voting rights, leads to more fatherless kids (a huge issue as it makes them vulnerable to gang recruitment with lack of good male role models etc...)
There are no doubt going to be some bad cops and as the milwaukee police chief recently said - "we don't want them, we find them and we kick them out". But right now it seems that the simple fact that a white officer shoots a black man is enough to "convince" people that this means the cop must be bad. It doesn't and it doesn't help the situation.
Save the complaints for the genuine cases and I think the arguments would be more convincing. But guess what - we don't need the protests or the riots to get results because when there is evidence then the law acts but convincing people that they are not getting justice when the evidence shows they have is just fueling mistrust and hatred which is more likely to make future black people victims. But looking at the leaders and representatives it seems like that may actually be their plan.
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designs
Here's a brief summation in case you missed it in Junior High.
World History, Sara Watts http://users.wfu.edu/watts/w02_AfrAmer.html
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talesin
You just described human history, not just American history. Empires are not built on "playing nice".
And excuse me for chuckling at this post. The problem being, most "Empires" don't claim to be saving the world. America claims to be the champion of the world ........ the ultimate of "playing nice".
I think that particular myth has been dispelled, at least to the rest of the world. The USA is no different from the Romans - conquering civilizations, having superior technology, and claiming to be saving cultures, when you are actually destroying them.
Let's not pretend, okay? I hate that - there's something about pretension that gets on my nerves. Hmmm, perhaps because I am an exJW and detest 'group think' (which describes patriotism to a 'T')?
t