Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon 551 Replies latest social current

• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  Here's a brief summation in case you missed it in Junior High.

  World History, Sara Watts http://users.wfu.edu/watts/w02_AfrAmer.html

  Designs,

  Okay. I read the short article you referenced. My questions to you remain:

  1. In historical terms, HOW was the manner in which European settlers expanded into territory new to them any different than HOW the then occupiers expanded into the same territory?

  2. In contemporary terms, WHO exactly are the “Masters” to which you refer? Elected officials? Someone else? WHO?

  Either you have responsible answers to those questions or you don't . Which is it?
• 

  Simon

  I fail to see whatever point it is you think you’re making. If you have some point please express it plainly so readers don’t have to interpret meaning.

  I think the argument goes: "I find an example from history where some mass of people were oppressed and then add 'just like blacks' to the end to prove my point".

  It's an attempt to take macro events and apply them at the micro / individual level which doesn't work. e.g. "we know racism happens therefore this specific incident must be because of racism".

  Realistically, you can only work in percentages. If the settlers were unkind to the indians then there is a good chance that settler Bob didn't like indians but you can't say that it proves he was - he could have been Bob the Indian Pal for all you know.

  It breaks down further as an argument when the mass behavior isn't the norm. Some want to claim that racism is thriving in the US today but there is little evidence that it is and lots of evidence that it isn't (president django for instance).

  But we still have situations where people want to take attitudes from the general population of 200 years ago and transplant them to become proof used to indict someone in a single specific incident today.

  That's why it's hard to follow the reasoning - there is very little reason involved, it's all appeals to sentiment and reminders of history which no longer apply.
• 

  Simon

  I think that particular myth has been dispelled, at least to the rest of the world. The USA is no different from the Romans - conquering civilizations, having superior technology, and claiming to be saving cultures, when you are actually destroying them.

  To be fair, the US has promoted freedoms and democracy. You are never going to have perfect government but some of the institutions of government that were created were setup to govern in as good a way ad could be possible.

  Of course mistakes are going to be made - the US didn't take the lead in abolishing slavery for instance probably being the most shameful and dragged it's feet on giving people the vote but it got there in the end.

  As much as I am personally critical of the US and what it sometimes does, it's hard to pick another replacement that you would rather have or one which you could be so openly critical of. I think the world would be in a worse situation and individuals less well off if we had a different regime as the major world power. Not every country gets to pick a new government every few years and the previous one leave quietly.

  Some of us who are crtitical at times appreciate the good things though. Some it seem just see the bad.
• 

  designs

  (t) gets it, I guess for the others the ol Frisbee got thrown a little to high. :D

  http://history-world.org/beginnings_of_north_european_exp.htm
• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  Let's not pretend, okay? I hate that - there's something about pretension that gets on my nerves.

  Denying factual history and arguing just to argue gets on my nerves. So my personal view (based in history) is "group think" ? Whatever, Tal.

  [edit]:

  (t) gets it

  LOL.
• 

  Simon

  We're not having trouble catching your frisbee designs, we just don't necessarilly agree that it bridges the giant leap that your reasoning imagines. Convincing talesin isn't a great acheivement when you feed her "government is evil" paranoia.

  It seems like an attempt to take this off topic and derail the thread. Are you intending to go through all of human history in an attempt to prove that officer wilson should have been indicted?
• 

  talesin

  It's interesting, this debate.

  Especially interesting to see the opinions of those who do not "live" it.

  Yeah, I'm 'white' (I prefer to think of it as rather pasty, pinkish, but whatever) ...... and I realize that I can't know what it's like to be 'brown' in the USA. I can only KNOW what I've experienced. And since I don't "LIVE" in America. I am ignorant.

  That's one thing I wish all non-American (USA) posters would realize. It's not like Canada. It's not like Britain. It's not like anywhere else. It is unique to the USA, in this 21st century.

  There are wounds that are open and pustulating. There are wounds that are deep, and fester in the American consciousness.

  Racial discrimination still exists - for cryin' out loud, African Americans were not even considered 'persons with rights' before the 70s! It's a new country, and the drama of healing from slavery and oppression is playing out on the world stage, like no other.

  Let's look at the underlying causes , which are REAL. When I hear black people on this forum saying "you don't understand, my son has to fear the police because he is black",,,,,, I don't hear much empathy on this forum.
  
  I think of Josie (MRs Jones), the most reasonable of posters, talking about how her son(s) have been taught to ALWAYS kow tow to the police, because, even thought they are GOOD CITIZENS, they may be profiled, and fuck, man, KILLEd because of some yahoo cop who fears people of colour.

  Was this man responsible for his own demise? In my opinion, he acted foolishly, and violently, and for that he was killed. I can understand the police officer's fear and automatic response to his life being threatened by a BIG MAN who, apparently, had no intent of being law-abiding. The cop was probably in fear of his life, and followed his training. I don't like cops, in general, but it's hard to see this situation in a favorable light with regards to Mr. Brown.

  Sentiment is important in general terms - YES, we have a problem. In practical terms, in reference to this case, I don't think the police officer did anything 'wrong' ........... other than responding to a thread to his personal safety, in the only way he could, in the situation.

  t
• 

  designs

  Just a nice stroll down 500 History Lane on why America is as it is today, including the current stats from the police department in St. Louis.

  Dropping family off at the airport, have fun today.
• 

  talesin

  ADCMS ... I hear you. It's just a different POV. To clarify, I do not speak of the American people as individuals, who are (imho) extremely misled and seem to value freedom and personal rights. I speak of the power brokers who rule your country (and mine).

  xx

  t
• 

  talesin

  when you feed her "government is evil" paranoia.

  LOL! I love that. :)

  And yes, I fully embrace the fact that my label is 'anarchist' and 'socialist', and that today's governments ARE 'evil', for lack of a better word.

  I hope that doesn't colour anyone's view when I post referenced facts. My opinion counts for nothing, as it should!

  As Walt Whitman said (to paraphrase) "examine all that is presented to you, and reject what offends your soul'. That is what I do. And, yes, 'government' offends my soul. Hell, Simon, you are originally British - doesn't classism offend you? Surprised. (and not sarcastically, just really).

  xx

  tal