I do not post here often. I have been around forever (it seems), very busily posting in the past... beginning with Hourglass 2 (for those who go back that far) But, like one person up the board expressed, this thread needed a comment. One person :--Mattieu “Haven't posted in 3 years, but this thread got me out of the woods…”
…like that.
If for no other reason than Ray Franz's name was used and comparisons drawn. (See steve2)
I have read the whole thread here and thought carefully about what others have said. I must say, just an observation, many here pander after personalities no less now, than they did when these personalities were 'somebody' on the org. There were a few who expressed skepticism, for example (Wasanelder Once) who suggested a “clean break” sounded "off". He was, of course, told he was incorrect by steve2 who rebuffed him using a fictitious argument, saying that Joe didn’t use the words “clean break”.
No steve2, he did not. But your comment was immaterial. Joe was suggesting that, through his own wit and wisdom he was able to leave the watchtower organization without repercussions. We understand that point clearly. Wassander’s comments stands true, it is preposterous to say anyone can leave the organization without repercussions, in a “clean break”.I would ask Joe, how is your relationship with your two brothers who still serve within the organization? Do you “fellowship” often? How is your relationship with others you were close to? Do you “fellowship” with them the same as before?Or are you instead as un-fellowshipped as we all know you to be?Ah, but you have made your final post. So my questions will be rhetorical.
Morpheus commented… “That explanation dosent add up as to why no action was taken. If you dont believe in the bible then you dont believe what the FDS teaches, including that the concept that the FDS is gods channel of communication and are therefore subject to df'ing. At best not longer believing in the bible is disassociation, substantially the same treatment as df'ing.”This was a good observation Mr Morph. Joe’s words belittle the experience of others who have endured much in their departure. For Joe to elevate himself in this way is self-serving. He proposes that he was smarter than everyone else, engineering an exit exclusive to his own intellect.---steve2 said “”I do see what Joe Slaiman is saying. A contrast with Ray Franz could help…Ray's biggest "mistake" …was…””
No steve2. There’s no comparison and Ray didn’t make a mistake. Ray made a choice and accepted the consequences wide-eyed. Ray became a living sacrifice, using what power remained in his hand for the education and freedom of others.
Joe quit the game. He took his bat and glove and left the ballpark. He quit outright. Now, an atheist, he just stares into a 6 foot hole waiting to be lowered in and for everyone to forget his existence.
Why does Joe care so much about the fans in the stands and if they cheer his name? What is his need to come here or anywhere to “set the record straight”.?
Joe, you are not that important.
---JW GoneBad “…In your many years as an Elder, C.O. and finally a D.O. without a doubt you saw more than your share of individuals whose lives were ruined in one way or another by this organization, an organization that you, sad to say, are still enslaved to.”
This person summed it up well. Watchtower still means much to Joe. Joe still cares what everyone thinks. People say they are not superstitious. When you ask them why they have a rabbit’s foot in their pocket, they say it’s just a keychain. But they cannot discard it.
I feel it’s important to be honest with oneself. Only after that, can one be honest with everyone else.
Since Ray’s name was brought into it, I will use a personal experience I had with him as an example about honesty and self-evaluation.
In Ray Franz’s publications, and even his comments in conversation, he expressed that he was not ‘out to get the organization’. On this point, I feel, Ray was not being 100% honest with himself. In my letters to him I made clear that I was, very certainly, out to get the org. What transpired between us is of note. I will explain.
When the United Nations scandal first broke on the forum, years ago, I heard it and was flabbergasted. I immediately called the UN and spoke at length with Paul Hoeffel. I quite literally begged him to produce a letter on UN stationary defining the relationship. I asked him to mail it, and before mailing, to fax it to an associate (hawkaw for those around those days) My objective was clear to me. I wanted war.
Now, Ray put this fax in Crisis of Conscience unbeknownst to me. And no, he didn’t need my permission. However. C of C was all about Ray’s journey in the organization. Why would Ray write about the UN affair in a revision? It was not his experience. He was long gone from the organization by that time. Still doing much, much good mind you, but the UN issue had nothing to do with C of C.
I saw a different side of this dear man through that. Did Ray change? Or did he finally come to terms with his endeavor. Did he finally understand what he was doing.
I contacted Ray about it. I asked him if he would like to take that fax out, as it was of poor quality. I suggested a scanned copy of the original. He gladly accepted and that is what went into the final edition.
Ray finally came to terms with what he was doing. He was at war with watchtower. He was at war with lies and obfuscation and deception. C of C was his platform, the power that remained in his hand, and he became more willing to thrust that sword into their heart. God rest his soul.
I learned years ago that I have to be objective with myself. I learn it further every day. To see myself as I really am. I hope Joe can get there. I still see Joe as sad and bitter. He has the rabbit’s foot in his pocket.
I am still going to kingdom hall, after all this time and all that’s happened. In fact, I conduct a pretty good watchtower study, for an apostate. ;) Why am I still in? Because there’s no such thing as a clean break. Perhaps, if I was a multi-millionaire and posed for the watchtower a nuclear threat, they would stand down, knowing that I would drag their sick ass all over town. But I am honest enough to see the situation for what it is. So I ask myself, Why would I even care? Would I be trying to force the JWs to “fellowship” with me as prior to my “break” …? That’s foolish. Either I want them or I do not. One has to make up one's mind.
If I leave, then I have damned well left. I am not still ‘fellowshipped’ if I have walked out the door. If I am not taking meals with jw’s, if I am not at the kingdom hall talking to them, if I am not cordial and sharing when I run into them at the supermarket, then I am the opposite of fellowshipped, I am dis-fellowshipped.
Who cares what announcement was made from whichever of the 80 thousand kingdom halls. One is deluded to think that one is NOT disfellowshipped when one has no contact with one’s own kinfolk because they are in and you are out.
When my family situation changes and there’s no longer a need for the pretense, I will not amuse myself with notions of self-importance or revel in dreams of enduring relationships with those I used to call friend. It will be done. I will symbolically ‘thrust in the knife’ without remorse, ending that life and embarking on my new life, one which will undoubtedly involve wholesale war against the lies and deception of watchtower.
I too came to grips with what my real objective is. Once upon a time, I sent letters, years ago, to the branch. What was I trying to do? Show them the error of their ways? Of course. I wanted them to re-examine their thinking and change. And why? Because I didn’t want to lose the fellowship of others, friends and family, while simultaneously being able to have doctrine that didn’t contradict.
Foolish thinking. They will not change.
Why did Joe produce a 20 page paper? Did he really believe he could affect their thinking in any way whatsoever? And to convert them to atheism no less,OMG as they say. What was Joe thinking? And was this paper meant for the watchtower as has been indicated or was it not as has also been indicated. Joe needs to make up his mind. If there was no address on the paper, then it was not specific to them, was it? Then he is trying to convert others.
Joe says he was not trying to sway anybody. Joe, nobody produces 20 pages to not sway anybody. That is identifiable nonsense on par with watchtower.
