Is being a "good" elder the same as being a "good" catholic priest?
Is there any difference between representing the RCC and representing that other bastion of child abuse the WT?
Elders and priests what 's the difference?
by sparrowdown 26 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
fulltimestudent
The problem, and a stupid reaction to the problem, is not confined to either the RCC or JW.com. It is a problem that has been found across a wide spectrum of many cultures, from secular youth organisations, to the armed forces (though it can't be called paedophilia in armed force, as the victims are older) and to various religious or spiritual associations.
It is documented that the founder of the Boy Scouts, Lord Baden Powell, found an enjoyment in looking at naked boys. In Tibetan Buddhist monasteries it is a continuing problem. It is not beyond belief that the current Dalai Lama may have had sexual experience in a monastery.
-
sparrowdown
No, of course child abuse is not confined to the RCC or JWs, the point is if you know that the religious group you are representing is up to it's eyeballs
in child abuse cover-ups and abuse scandals dating back decades and that group refuses to address the problem or even acknowledge it.
Then why the hell would you want to continue representing it (which would involve officially defending it) as an elder or a priest?
-
prologos
An elder is supposed to be the husband of one wife, according to paul,
to marry is better, than to be inflamed with passion*, according to paul, so the elder has it easier then the PC priest, less of an excuse for wrongdoing too.
* better yet, to be married AND to be inflamed with passion. where are the bible redacteurs when we need them?
-
FlyingHighNow
The level of education and training is vastly different.
-
prologos
Are RC Priests normally assigned one lonely individual to a congregation, perhaps with one helper, whereas JW Elders work in a governing Body kind of arrangement.?
-
smiddy
Elders and priests what 's the difference?
Jehovahs Witnesses claim ( or they used to ) their is no clergy laity distinction in their religion , whereas the R,C,Church certainly has that distinction.
However JW`s in a court of law , often fall back on clergy privelidge to avoid answering difficult questions or to withhold required documents in sex abuse cases.
In another recent court case dealing with the structure of the organization they stated they were not unlike the Roman Catholic Church hirearchy .
In trying to defend the members of the Faithfull and Discreet Slave class , they went on record in a court of law , words to the effect , no man can be identified as a F&DS , it is only a theocratic arrangement.
smiddy
-
rory-ks
I submit that the Society actually wants congregation members to afford the same respect to appointed men as other Christian religions (Catholics, CofE, whatever) give to their clergymen.
Have you noticed the determination that they have in addressing elders, circuit overseers, governing body members as "Brother so-and-so"? See it demonstrated in the December 2014 broadcast on JWTV. Mark Neumair addressing David Splane as "Brother Splane"; referring to Steven Lett as "Brother Lett" (and how privileged we were to hear him speak, etc.) The Society's video dramas are forever having the congregation members portrayed as referring to certain elders or circuit overseers as "Brother whoever". In those bloody judicial committee demonstration videos young Robbie Friend goes up and says, "Brother Sharp I have something serious to talk about." He says, "Sure, I'll just get Brother Anderson."
Catholics call their clergymen "Father so-and-so" (and, of course, their monastaries are full of "Brothers") and Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly encouraged to refer to their clergymen as "Brother so-and-so." No difference.
It is all unrealistic in real-world terms, but it demonstrates the way the GB would like to see things. It's cognitive dissonance 101, of course. "No we don't have a clergy class, but, could you address them as if we do?"
-
sparrowdown
Smiddy - yes I am familiar with that court case where the societies lawyer calls the the WT a hierarical religion. Hierarchy when it suits them.
rory - you make some excellent points. I have known catholic priests who were more down to earth and easier to talk to than your average elder.
JW elders seem to have very fragile egos that are in need of constant stroking.
-
fulltimestudent
As far as child abuse and Catholic priests are concerned, an interesting discussion has been going on in the last few years - and that is the possible role of the church doctrine of celibacy:
Child sex abuse link to celibacy
- Date: January 24, 2013
Barney Zwartz
Many Catholic priests take a flexible approach to celibacy, tolerated by church leaders, and some believe sex with children or men does not count, a former Melbourne priest said on Wednesday.
''An enormous number of priests struggle with celibacy,'' Philip O'Donnell told the state inquiry into how the churches handle child sex abuse.
''There's a tolerance for imperfection in celibacy, and that may have led to a lessening of outrage at sex with children.''
He said he had no training about celibacy in the seminary and that many priests were ill-equipped. ''Chosen celibacy is a gift, but mandatory celibacy is for many priests a millstone,'' he said.
Mr O'Donnell declined to speculate on what percentage of Catholic priests, who must vow to be celibate, were sexually active, but another Melbourne priest has separately suggested it is about half.
Asked by committee member Andrea Coote whether priests believed only sex with women counted as real sex (breaking celibacy vows), and that homosexual and child sex did not, Mr O'Donnell said: ''Sometimes.''
He said another priest told him the celibacy requirement would never change because so many priests were gay and it was ''great cover. No one asks me why I am 50 and single - they assume I am celibate,'' the priest told Mr O'Donnell.
Mr O'Donnell - a priest in Melbourne from 1975 to 1999 who resigned and later married - said sexually active priests coped with the internal contradiction by compartmentalising their professional and private lives.
In other evidence to the inquiry, Catholics for Renewal president Peter Johnstone said the church's handling of sexual abuse was directly related to its dysfunctional government. Although Australian church leaders claimed that responding to abuse was a local matter, in fact the Vatican kept strict control.
The worldwide church was governed by a 17th-century system whereby ultimate power was vested in men who were celibate, often socially isolated, usually old, unable to communicate with the faithful, and under the supreme control of a papal monarch who demanded blind obedience.
Mr Johnstone said Catholics for Renewal was an organisation of committed, progressive Catholics who represented views shared by several Australian bishops and scores of priests who were bound by rigid vows of obedience not to publicly say so.
Asked by the committee to name these bishops, Mr Johnstone said it would be inappropriate. ''If you want to see what happens to bishops who disagree, just look at Bill Morris'' (the bishop of Toowoomba sacked by the Pope last May after suggesting the church might consider revisiting the question of women priests).
However, retired bishops Pat Power of Canberra and Geoffrey Robinson of Sydney are two who have trenchantly criticised Vatican structures.
A former principal and a teacher at Holy Family School, Doveton, told the inquiry of how their careers and lives were ruined after they separately sought to protect children from the predatory parish priest, Peter Searson (now dead).
Both Graham Sleeman, a popular principal in the 1980s, and Carmel Rafferty, a senior teacher in the early 1990s, believe the Catholic Education Office and archdiocese betrayed them. Both found it impossible to get work in the Catholic education system after their whistleblowing, and both suffered years of trauma and stress.
The Doveton parish suffered six abusers in a row as parish priest or assistant priest.
Link: http://www.smh.com.au/national/child-sex-abuse-link-to-celibacy-20130123-2d7ch.html