Illegal immigrants in the organization?

by silent 46 Replies latest jw friends

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  silent

  I had a thought today that might prove interesting. I'm wondering if there are any illegal immigrants who are witnesses? Surely it would be a great position to be in as an illegal immigrant because you could play up your plight and prey on the sympathies of others within the congregation. In accordance with Rom. 13 about obeying the superior authorities, since this person is clearly living in a perpetual illegal situation and not obeying the superior authorities, do you think the BOE would have the guts to mark or disfellowship such ones? For them to be repentant would mean a move back home. I'm not basing this on any real situation that I'm aware of, however I'm sure it could be a real scenario. If this was tolerated, then wouldn't bank robbery, theft, forgery, and a whole entire list of other illegal behaviour be "okay" and "tolerated" as well?

  I think too much, but it might be fun to throw a little scripture at the situation and watch 'em scatter...

  -silent
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  Listener

  Silent, you raise a really good issue. This is just information that i've picked up, I can't remember where from or even how accurate it is. What I've heard is that illegal immigrants are accepted as part of the congregation and the elders do not impose any requirements on these people to abide by the law of man. The only imposition is that the men will not be appointed to any positions.

  As to whether these people are breaking the law or not is dependant on the laws in each particular country. For instance, here in Australia someone could be considered an illegal immigrant but if they were to apply for refugee status then they would not be breaking the law, however they would be kept in a detention centre until such time as they were allowed to reside here or had to return home.

  It is possible that as the organization believes that God's laws are above man's, they conclude that they should not hinder a persons ability to worship God and be part of the congregation. We've seen how they treat pedo's and it doesn't appear to be a requirement that an offender hands themselves into the higher authorities.
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  silent

  Thank you for your comment Listener. Even if the organization believes God's laws are above man's, ie obeying God as ruler rather than men - Jehovah hasn't put anything in scripture concerning illegal immigration however, obeying the Superior Authorities - as preached by the organization - would dictate that they turn themselves in and be deported. If I had this in my congregation, I would push the issue. There is no way someone who doesn't obey the laws of the country should be allowed to attend without some kind of action such as marking, etc. If they tolerate illegal immigrants, then technically, they should allow everything else that crosses Caesar's boundaries - such as pedophilia, refusal to pay taxes, speeding, etc. It seems to me they want to pick and choose what laws of Caesar's are grounds for disciplinary action, when scripture already plainly defines it at Romans 13 (by their own interpretation.)
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  Listener

  I agree with you Silent and I do wonder what the org's. position is on this.

  There was a fairly recent article regarding family members working overseas and they were straongly against this, they stated a number of reasons, including the problems associated with the family being seperated. Earning money and supporting your family was specifically excluded as being a good reason for needing to do this. However, there was no discussion about the legality of it. Even though the bible makes it clear that a man must provide for his family, they chose to whitewash this.
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  silent

  I also wanted to throw in this other line of reasoning is that in order to keep the congregation clean, wouldn't removing someone from among your midst who was a habitual or perpetual law-breaker be in order? Any line of reasoning that seeks to justify allowing an illegal immigrant as a member of a congregation would in fact be false reasoning - allowing a perpetual breaker of the law to be in your company. In effect, this would basically be sanctioning the act of being in the country illegally. It would certainly ruffle some feathers and create a very awkward situation, but when it comes to laws, you can't pick and choose which ones you want to follow or it nullifies the entire law.

  Interesting situation... Someone could have a lot of fun with it by saying it offends their conscience and so forth.
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  Listener

  I've found one article on the JW library discussing the issue. It's in the Awake 2002 1/22, although it identifies it as being illegal or 'dishonest' it does not deal with it from a congregational point of view.

  Count the Cost Before Migrating for Economic Reasons

  In view of the many criminal gangs involved in trafficking migrants and the difficulty of immigrating legally to countries of the developed world, husbands and fathers should carefully consider the following questions before making a decision.

  1. Is our economic situation really so desperate that one or all of the family must move to a country where wages are higher?

  2. How much debt would we incur to finance the trip, and how will the debt be repaid?

  3. Is it worth breaking up the family for economic advantages that may prove unrealistic? Many illegal migrants find it practically impossible to obtain regular employment in developed countries.

  4. Should I believe the stories about high wages and social benefits? The Bible says that “anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.”—Proverbs 14:15.

  5. What guarantee do I have that we would not be putting ourselves in the hands of a criminal organization?

  6. If such a criminal group did organize the journey, do I understand that my wife—or my daughter—might well find herself forced to work as a prostitute?

  7. Do I realize that if I enter a country as an illegal immigrant, I may be unable to obtain fixed employment and could be repatriated, losing all the money I have invested in the journey?

  8. Do I want to consider becoming an illegal immigrant or resorting to dishonest measures in order to gain admittance to a wealthier country?—Matthew 22:21; Hebrews 13:18.
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  FatFreek 2005

  "If this was tolerated, then wouldn't bank robbery, theft, forgery, and a whole entire list of other illegal behaviour be "okay" and "tolerated" as well?"

  Very good point. Local cong elders are being put in the position of choosing, like at a buffet cafeteria, which of Caesars laws are valid enough to take some form of legal action. One of the WT judicial keys seems to be if a person is a practitioner of a certain behavior. We can therefore conclude:

  1. If the perpetrator admits to being an illegal allien (remember: being one is not a one-and-done act -- it means one is practicing this behavior), then positions of congregation responsibility are not allowed. I know that in one congregation in Tennessee, elders will have nothing to do with turning that person in to the authorities. "We are not the police", they say.

  2. If the perp admits to practicing other illegal behavior (see above) then disfellowshipping and other punitive measures are in order.

  I see it as self serving for the WTS -- they want/need membership and turning these folks in would be contrary to their membership goals.

  Len
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  silent

  Very interesting indeed and fodder to be thrust out in the event there is an illegal immigrant in the congregation. In the case of Mexico and the U.S., I can't imagine an illegal immigrant that would want to even bother attending meetings unless they gained financially or materially from it. I even doubt they would stay long enough to get baptized nor be allowed, but I'd still say it could happen somewhere. I do feel for immigrants and their plight, but there are legal processes in place that Caesar has put in place and that law stands until Christ returns and does things Jehovah's way.

  Thanks for your commentary. Very refreshing to not be judged over my thoughts for a change...
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  OneEyedJoe

  ive heard that down in Texas if you're a brother that wants to be an elder all you have to do is learn Spanish and join one of the Spanish congregations. Apparently most of them are illegal so they end up d with congregations of 100+ with only a couple elders, so if you're at all eligible you're made an elder straight away.

  The cult is hurting for brothers who are reaching out so bad that it's only a matter of time before they let illegals become appointed, if they haven't changed the rules already. Especially considering that most new recruits come from immigrants these days.
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  silent

  Thus FatFreek 2005 - this is where the child molestation and pedophilia has gotten them in trouble. If someone was caught fondling a young member of the congregation, is their official response then to discipline internally and not report it to the authorities? That would cross a line that Caesar has in place so as they say in the silence of the Catholic church during Hitler's regime - silence begets complicity. If they report pedophilia, but not illegal immigration then they are starting to pick and choose what laws of Caesar to report on and not. That is shaky ground and turning a blind eye to wrong-doing. Interesting to say the least...