Illegal immigrants in the organization?

by silent 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • Tech49
    Tech49

    The short answer to the original poster is this: yes, the brothers do not discriminate against illegal immigrants. This is evidenced by the enormous influx of illegals, especially Mexicans, into US congregations 8-10 years ago, during the economic boom. Our area, like many others, jumped at the opportunity to form extra congregations. Spanish speaking congregations were popping up, then splitting, almost monthly it seemed. Many attendees could barely speak English, and the majority were unquestionably in the USA illegally.

    WT sent out a letter to the BOE around 2009 or 2010 (I am sure someone has it handy, and can post it or link it). The purpose of the letter was primarily to remind overzealous elder bodies that they could not appoint a man to a position in the congregation, as he was not "exemplary", because he was breaking Caesars laws.!!!!

    This letter put many congregations in a pickle, because " legal" elders and servants were a difficult commodity to come by. Many turned a blind eye, and appointed anyway. I saw it firsthand. Many reports were fudged, just enough to sooth the pricking consciouses of the elders, so that they could claim ignorance if some "needed" appointments happened to slip by the great Holy Spirit.

    Even more interesting was the fact that ZERO emphasis was put on the fact that these ones claiming to be Jehovahs people were blatantly breaking the law, usually in multiple degrees.

    Why, you ask? Why not crack down on the lawbreaking congregants? Easy..they were making good money in the UP economy, and could donate TONS to "mother".

    Its easy for WT to pick and choose what laws they care to follow, when its all about the money!

  • silent
    silent

    I'd like to know this for a fact OneEyedJoe, but I have a very valid concern (personal) over illegals being allowed in the organization. If they allow this, then I'd like for them to prove to me scripturally how they can allow this in good conscience? This offends my conscience big time and shows they do indeed pick and choose what laws of Caesar they want to honor. Direct violation of Romans 13. Imagine entire congregations of illegal immigrants!!! It harbors them and they are okay with it. It's a great defense for if you get hauled in for some minor infraction, to counter this with entire congregations of people who are committing illegal acts every second - 'round the clock - and the organization does nothing about it. Why is what you've done so hideously wrong as a one-time thing as compared to habitual wrong-doing in the case of being in a country illegally?

    If I'm arrested for bank robbery - I guarantee I would get some disciplinary action in the congregation and spend time in Caesar's prison.

    If I'm an illegal alien - I'd have to hide out from the authorities or risk deportation. No disciplinary action in the congregation to speak of, but Caesar does have a disciplinary action - deportation.

    So if sheer numbers make enforcing deportation difficult for Caesar, but they are trying to deport as many as they can, then I'd say the spirit of the law is one of, "You can't be here illegally."

    If there are high numbers of bank robberies, then would it suddenly make bank robbers a tolerated segment of the overall congregation's numbers?

    The simple answer is that it's a violation of Romans 13 - they are NOT in subjection to the superior authorities and should not serve NOR should their habitual wrong-doing allow them to even be active members of the congregation. Marking at the very least, shunning, and disfellowshipping if you're going to be consistent. They've broken God's law at Rom. 13 and Caesar's law that Rom. 13 backs up.

  • Violia
    Violia

    The illegals of marriage age should have no problems as there are many willing sisters who will marry them so they can then be legal. This happened a lot in the 80's, 90's. The elders were fond of saying " we are not the police, we have no obligation to turn anyone into the police". However when it came to positions in the Borg, different matter.

  • silent
    silent

    Tech49: This is really good information. I have some *EXCELLENT* ammunition now. I'll be damned if I'm ever pigeon-holed again on some issue. My SO tells me I have a pretty rock-solid logical mind on things and so not to defend wrong-doing on my part, but if you can prove where there is a gross failure in the power structure, a turning of a blind-eye to wrong doing, you've discredited the entire structure and system and proven that it cannot hold up to scrutiny. This is a great chink in the armor and I'm thrilled to have found this out. The letter you referenced though seems awfully soft though in that they weren't saying these people needed to go back home if they were to be found acceptible to Jehovah. I'd like to see how faithful these Witnesses are when they are told to obey Caesar's laws. Their arrogance towards the laws of the land would be blatantly exposed and they would be shown up for who and what they are.

    Thanks for your post. This made my day and I can get a great night's sleep now! :)

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    if you can prove where there is a gross failure in the power structure, a turning of a blind-eye to wrong doing, you've discredited the entire structure and system and proven that it cannot hold up to scrutiny. This is a great chink in the armor and I'm thrilled to have found this out. The letter you referenced though seems awfully soft though in that they weren't saying these people needed to go back home if they were to be found acceptible to Jehovah. I'd like to see how faithful these Witnesses are when they are told to obey Caesar's laws.

    I guess thats why they call it theocratic warfare

    Secular authourities , law enforcement bodies , governments , etc. are all on a need to know basis .

    The less they know the better the WTB&TS can screw them .

    smiddy

  • joe134cd
    joe134cd

    I know for a fact they accept illegals into the cong, but they cannot have a position of responsibility. I think if your breaking the law weather it be theft, illegal immigrants etc. Then you are breaking Ceasars laws, and it should be handled accordingly.

  • clarity
    clarity

    Here is a Watchtower Letter RE: Reporting Murder!

    Or not! ...............

    *

    http://www.silentlambs.org/education/92_murder_letter.cfm

    clarity

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    In the U.K. I personally knew an Elder who had permission to go into an immigration detention centre to witness.

    He assured me that he told any illegal immigrants he studied with, that if they wanted to live by Bible standards and principles (and become a J.W.) then they should abandon their illegal situation and ask to be returned to their own country.

    I have no idea if any accepted his reasonings.

  • joe134cd
    joe134cd

    Searcher I could imagine how that went down.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Here is what the WTS says about illegal immigrants. You might see how the WTS applies this to not turning in pedophiles.

    *** w86 10/1 Questions From Readers ***

    “Questions From Readers,” The Watchtower of June 1, 1968.

    Elders in the Christian congregation are responsible to handle violations of divine law, such as stealing, murder, and immorality. But God did not require congregation elders to enforce Caesar’s laws and codes. Hence, Paul did not feel compelled to turn over to Roman authorities Onesimus, who was a fugitive under Roman law. (Philemon 10, 15) Of course, if someone flagrantly violates secular law, gaining the reputation of being a lawbreaker, he would not be a good example and might even be disfellowshipped. (1 Timothy 3:2, 7, 10) If lawbreaking was involved in causing another’s death, bloodguilt requiring congregation investigation might result.

    *** w77 3/15 pp. 191-192 Questions From Readers ***

    ● A man I know is progressing toward Christian baptism, but his visa to be in this country has expired. What should I advise him?

    You certainly should commend him for desiring to know and follow God’s counsel. The Scriptures urge Christians to be law-abiding, to pay to Caesar what is Caesar’s. (Matt. 22:21) Hence, it would be good for you to urge this man to do what he can to rectify his status, which may at present be considered that of an illegal alien.

    Evidently he is not stealing, lying, living in immorality or otherwise violating God’s moral laws plainly stated in the Bible. We mention this because a person who is breaking God’s laws must repent and turn around before he will qualify for Christian baptism. (1 Cor. 6:9, 10; Acts 26:20; 2:38) But, this man wants to know, What about complying with the laws of the land, such as in his case?

    The Bible advises Christians to obey the laws of the land in all matters where there is no conflict with God’s law. (Rom. 13:1; Acts 5:29) The apostle explained that by doing this we will not need to fear punishment from the authorities who punish lawbreakers. Also, we can thus have a clear conscience.—Rom. 13:3-5.

    Still, God’s Word does not charge the Christian congregation, through its overseers, with the obligation to become acquainted with all the details of civil and criminal law so as to enforce these. We can see this in how Paul handled the case of Onesimus.

    Onesimus was a slave of a Colossian Christian named Philemon. For some selfish reason Onesimus fled to Rome so he could lose himself in the masses of people there; he may even have robbed his master before fleeing. In Rome as a runaway slave (Latin, fugitivus) Onesimus came in contact with Paul, became a Christian and ministered to Paul. In time the apostle urged Onesimus to return to his legal master, Paul even encouraging Philemon to receive Onesimus as a brother and to treat him kindly.—Philem. 8-22.

    Take note that while Onesimus was in Rome the apostle Paul did not hand him over to the Roman authorities for punishment as a fugitive slave and possibly a thief. We know from his writings that Paul believed that a Christian should obey the law of the land, but plainly he did not consider it the congregation’s duty to serve as an arm of the government in policing individuals’ lives. Also, we can observe that Onesimus’ situation was not treated as a barrier to his getting baptized. Eventually Onesimus, likely motivated by counsel such as had been written earlier in Romans 13:1-5 and by Paul’s personal urgings, chose to return to his legal master.

    The Christian congregation today follows a course harmonious with this Biblical pattern. It does not, before allowing a person to get baptized or continue in the congregation, check to see if someone’s home meets every detail of the building code, whether he has satisfied every detail as to his legal status in the country, and so forth.

    This by no means suggests that God’s people care little about Caesar’s laws. On the contrary, we are well known as a people who strive to be law-abiding; many governmental officials have praised Jehovah’s Witnesses for this. It is even as Paul wrote about obeying the government, “Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it.”—Rom. 13:3.

    In particular should men who take the lead in the congregation be exemplary in this respect. The Bible says about elders and ministerial servants that they should be “irreprehensible,” ‘having a fine testimony from people on the outside’ and being “free from accusation.” (1 Tim. 3:2, 7, 10) Thus a Christian who chooses to ignore well-known legal requirements of “Caesar” would hardly be in position to be recommended for such offices in the congregation. Men recommended for such privileges should be ones “holding firmly to the faithful word,” not only in what they say, but also in how they choose to live, including their applying the counsel to pay “Caesar’s things to Caesar.”—Titus 1:7-9.

    True, each individual, Christian or not, is personally responsible as to whether he complies with civil laws. Yet, it will be kind on your part to share with your acquaintance these Scriptural thoughts. Indeed, the Bible’s counsel to be obedient to governmental laws is wise and for our good. By applying it Christians can avoid troublesome problems and enjoy a clear conscience in serving God.

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