How do you overcome this JW excuse?

EdenOne

During one of those meetings that took place before my JC, one of the Elders, who was a good friend of mine back then And used to come up with a few outlandish personal views about some teachings, attempted to counter one of my arguments like this:

Eden - "Well, if The truth doesn't change, why is it that what we teach as 'truth' has changed over the years (several examples given)? How can we dogmatically claim at any given moment that we have 'the truth' if our teachings keep changing?"

Elder - " The truth never changes. It's our perspective on The truth that may change, but The truth has always been The same".

Eden - "Well, then, by your own admission, the Organization has been wrong a few times in The past. Doesn't that at least prove that it's possible it may be wrong at present day?"

Elder - "No, The Organization is never wrong"

Eden - "What ?!? But you just said ..."

Elder - "The Organization is only wrong when we look back and see that Jehovah corrected its course. So, it's only wrong in retrospect, never at present time. If Jehovah allows for a teaching or procedure to persist, it's because He wants it that way, therefore it can Never be wrong at any time in present time".

I found it pointless to argue further about this at that point. But I'm curious, because that was an angle I had never heard before, albeit clearly skewed. If you had enough time to prepare a counter-argument, what would it be like?

Eden

goingthruthemotions

you just experieced Cognitive Dissonance first hand....very sad.

Run don't walk.......to your nearest exit.

IT'S A CULT

GTTM

AndDontCallMeShirley

So Jehovah™, the 'god of truth' who "cannot lie", is very comfortable with allowing lies/misinformation to persist, knowing his people are believing error? Then he's not a god of truth.

And, by WT dogma, if a JW does not buy into the obvious lie/error, Jehovah has no use for him.

Essentially, this elder is okay with following error. How do you even begin to reason with a person who likes being deceived?

Darth Fader The Sequel

EdenOne, I literally laughed out loud as I read your conversation with the "elder". I sure hope you can get a chuckle out of it now, too. That is some crazy talk there. CRAZY!!!

Darth Fader

Legacy

HI Eden,

The org. can't be wrong...if it is...the elder would lose all his cookies....what I don't think most folks on here realize is that the org. is the only string that keeps them alive....destroy their beliefs, you would destroy them....there is nothing else in this life for them...as far as they are concerned...Life is a lie...so the only truth is the org. even if it wrong. Everybody & everythings is wrong...so what most witnesses are really saying is this...please don't take away my security blanky....without I would ......die....Ever lay in your bed & think about death...it shakes you to your very core, don't it...to think...wow, I may never ever come back, sends chills up one's back...so don't you think it's the same for witnesses...to lay in their beds to think the org. is a lie & that this life is all there is..chills...they are holding on for dear life...some of the friends in my hall, their entire life is the hall...that's all they know..or should I say, all they want to know...

You don't have to overcome any JW excuses....let them have their blanky....just think if they did leave & they were left to walk around us that do think...most of them would end of draining the system, because they can't function without the org...let them be....it's safer for all of us...

I go to my meetings...& I observe...social misfits...they can only Love God/Society, & that's all they can do...they try to love one another, but just can't....most of them were never taught or showed love...it's just a word to them....you can tell by the hugs..some give you a bear hug & some hardly even touch you ....if you ever told one that this is not God's org...they'd start to foam at the mouth, don't you know most of them are in the org. for just that reason...not because of the doctrine but because it's God's org....take that away...would any of them stay...I think not...what do you think if you told folks there was no Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus...Kabooooom....

Legacy

Darth Fader The Sequel

Oh, by the way, I have had that EXACT same conversation several times with uber-dubs. It makes me want to set myself on fire.

Apognophos

This is not cognitive dissonance. It's not even an illogical argument. It's simply a statement that the present beliefs are always the "truth" in the sense that God wants JWs to have those beliefs at that point in time.

The counter-argument is flip-flops. Why would Jehovah direct, or allow the Society to direct, Witnesses to believe A, then change it to B, then back to A? Especially if the flip-flop led to lives being lost. This is true of the organ transplant flip-flop.

The counter-counter-argument to this is probably to say that Jehovah knew something that we didn't know, and people had to be steered away from organ transplants during those years. But it places the JW on shaky ground because they won't be able to point to anything we know now about transplants that made them dangerous from 1967 to 1980.

Another counter-argument is to ask where in the Bible God allowed his servants to have wrong beliefs for a period of time until he corrected them.

sir82

Yeah, that's pretty much the fall-back position of just about every WT apologist:

"Jehovah has a reason for allowing [whatever horrendous event or erroneous teaching you are discussing]. It must be a good reason - he is God, after all. You don't know what that reason is, so you shouldn't complain. Evenetually if it really is so bad, he'll see to it that it gets fixed."

It's completely & utterly illogical. Of course, what it really is, is an emotional response - logic doesn't fight on the same plane as emotion, so you can't reason around it.

Marvin Shilmer

Elder - "The Organization is only wrong when we look back and see that Jehovah corrected its course. So, it's only wrong in retrospect, never at present time. If Jehovah allows for a teaching or procedure to persist, it's because He wants it that way, therefore it can Never be wrong at any time in present time".

That reasoning would mean every religious organization on the face of planet earth teaches "The Truth."

What this man is guilty of is properly termed rationalization. You can't reason with someone who's content to rationalize and call it rational.

OneEyedJoe

When people start making arguments like this, there's no counter argument that will sway them or make any point. Anything you say at this point will just be interpreted as belligerence and proof that you don't have the "right heart condition" and therefore need to be cast out.

The only thing that I can think of that might make some kind of impact is something like the organ transplant ban where you can basically say that either the organization isn't always right, or god wanted it to be bloodguilty.

How do you overcome this JW excuse?

Share this