How do you overcome this JW excuse?

by EdenOne 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    So, the truth is never wrong—it’s our perception of it that can be wrong? And wrong as it applies to the Governing Body is only wrong in retrospect; if it was taught in the past, then that’s because it was the Lord’s will at the time?

    But what if something’s wrong in the future, or in the present?

    The elder said, “The Organization is NEVER wrong.” Never applies to the past, present and future. Our perception of truth may vary.

    Perhaps he means that, like the Universe, when we first see it, it appears as though we’re the center of it. But later we learn that, no, we’re just part of it. Our sun is among the many other suns that exist. Only it turns out later that some of those suns aren’t suns at all, but other galaxies. So overnight we see that the Universe was billions of times greater than we thought. Then maybe ten years from now we find out (or discover) that our universe isn’t THE UNIVERSE, but a universe; and that there could be billions of other universes out beyond ours, or coexisting with it in other dimensions. What if there are worlds or kingdoms that are so small we can’t detect them, or that our universe is only the inside of an atom in a giant’s heel (or worse)? All the other perceptions would then be not truth, but conjecture. Then, instead of never being wrong, we would then always be wrong. What does that say about us? That we were trying to deceive or that we, ourselves, were deceived?

    When Jesus gave the parable about the blind leading the blind, he was saying that when our leaders are as blind as we are, everyone falls into the pit. The problem comes when the blind tell the rest of us they can see and we, ourselves, are blind and please, oh so very much, let us lead you because you’re either so blind or stupid that you can’t see. Well, they can’t see any better than we can. Everyone would be better off with people who believed the “new light” before it was the new light, right? Not the people who believed that the old light was the new light earlier in time.

    No one can “see” unless they not only can see, but comprehend. I would ask the elder if those who were chosen and ordained were supposed to be better at seeing or worse? That doesn’t mean they have to be right about the Universe, but about the things pertaining to their callings. If there is no vision, the people perish, we’re told. Thus, our leaders must perceive truth as God gives them the light to see it. But even science has not only been spectacularly wrong about things, but when they find out, they’re not the quickest to change, either. Everyone knew smoking was harmful to one’s health when science was still being controlled by political winds that blew in the other direction. It also took science over a century to finally admit vitamin C prevented Scurvy, even after Amerindians showed sailors it could be prevented by certain fruits and bark that were rich vitamin C. They even thought tomatoes were poisonous, even when people were eating it in public gatherings. The doctors at the time called such demonstrations “dangerous” and “ill-advised.”

    It’s good to learn more, but resistance to truth can come from anywhere. That’s why it’s incumbent on us to judge whether our political, scientific and religious leaders are leading us in areas we ought to be led. But among them all, religious and political leaders have the worst record of all. Look at how many religions there are, or even Christian denominations. In America, we judge our political leaders on whether they have charisma and good hair. Never mind that Ross Perot was absolutely correct in everything he predicted that’s now coming to pass! He was short and talked funny. And he was paranoid — or at least the government said so.

    So the elder’s argument doesn’t wash. If someone is supposed to lead us, it would be a good idea if they actually were connected to God in some way. Not to someone who had never heard His voice or seen Him. Anyone can say God chose them. Joel Osteen got rich and he never once said he was called by or represented God in any way. He makes no pretenses about being an apostle or prophet, or being called to the ministry the night after he’d eaten an entire meatlover’s pizza. He hardly ever talks about God, except in the abstract. And what about the Reverend Al? When was the last time you heard him even mention Jesus Christ. He’s okay with the multimedia profaning the name of Christ in movies and stage presentations, but let someone mention the “N-word” and he’s on the next plane out, then angrily stabs his finger into air in front of news cameras and does his best to sound like a cotton-picker from Georgia. But privately, he disdains actual work and is fond of visiting the White House, mixing it up with politicians and eating in fancy restaurants, paying $60 for a steak. But the Governing Body takes money, tells you they’re God’s anointed FDS — yet they’ve never seen an angel, heard a voice, stood in the presence of a burning bush or seen God. They can’t even tell you that what they teach comes from revelation, even though all of God’s previous servants throughout history could. So, like blind men, sure, they can all feel different parts of the elephant. That’s perception and it varies. It may even be truth in some convoluted way; but anyone can perceive things, then change their views later. But why do you suppose they think they are the only ones who should get away with it? And do the members of the GB really think they are God’s chosen, or do you think they have doubts?

    .

  • Badfish
    Badfish

    Oh, I see.

    So Jehovah wanted us to believe lies, and then go out and knock on people's doors and spread those lies.

    Then, later, he used his holy spirit to let everybody know (through his earthly governing body) that he was just trolling.

    Good times.

  • notsurewheretogo
    notsurewheretogo

    Generation.

    Literally.

    Anointed disciples.

    The people around about.

    Now overlapping.

    So none of that has changed but just "perspective"?

    I think people need to stop using the word "logic" when talking about this elders statement because there is none.

  • talesin
    talesin

    Sounds like Circular Reasoning (or circular logic).

    Jehovah is omniscient, infallible, etc.

    Therefore, the present truth from Jehovah is always the truth.


    from Wiki, a definition:

    1. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade.
  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    Nothing changes in JW Land. Here's what the Proclaimers book says about the 1925 "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" campaign along with the 100% failure of all WT predicted would occur in that year:

    "Though mistaken, they eagerly shared it with others." (Proclaimers, chap. 28, p.623)

    Translation: as long as JWs are 'eager' about sharing falsehoods coming from god, neither He nor they have any problem with it.

    89 years later JWs still subscribe to the same nonsense.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Great responses, thanks. I brought it up, not because I plan to go back to this discussion with that Elder, for as long as he continues to be in such a position of authority within JW land, and I'm not DF, I can't have a frank discussion with him; and if I'm DF he won't even communicate with me anyway. So, only if he someday wakes up - unlikely, at this point. In any case, since it was such a contrived argument, I thought it was useful to discuss it since it may well come up in situations involving others here. I think that, when someone feels it's reasonable to resort to that type of argument, any chance of trying to successfuly use an effective rational argument is entirely hopeless and wasted. The more I distance myself from the WTS, the crazier it all seems.

    Eden

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    "Though mistaken, they eagerly shared it with others." (Proclaimers, chap. 28, p.623)

    Funny, I distinctly remember the illustration in the old Live Forever book about a person that was reading a map incorrectly with the point being that being sincere in your beliefs, but wrong does not make you right.

    Hypocrites.

  • UFCFan
    UFCFan

    There isn't really a counter to Elders considering most of them make up things as they go along. It's pretty funny actually if you think about some of the stuff they say.

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    One cannot have a rational discussion with a person who has lost his mind.

  • JW GoneBad
    JW GoneBad

    EdenOne: "I found it pointless to argue further about this at that point."

    I think you answered your own question EdenOne....it's pointless to take any further!!!

    I have come to the conclusion that it is pointless to get into a verbal fragas with a JW, especially an Elder on any subject. Elders are bullheaded, hardheaded and stubborn male asses!!!

    All the same, I will say you surely KO'd him with your reasoning and logic!

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