Did the Resurrection really happen? (page 3)

MikeNightHaShev

The Irony is that today they teach that the RCC will converge all the cults into worship of one image. That's exactly what already happened and everyone was deceived by this image because they have no common sense to notice what they did. Common sense if they have a problem with the way the RCC created Mary in an image in making Mary divine and perfect then they must conclude this is exactly how they converged myth and fantasy to make Jesus divine and perfect a mere image of a man converged of many mythologies martyrs and Biblical characters to subbvert man with that image. So it said many would be slain to worship that image and so it was with the Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust, Poland Massacre etc. Over thousands of wars and 50 Million murders slain to worship the image Rome created.

FetterFree Annie

Six says:

Josh Mcdowell is a lying scumbag. Just read what he calls "facts" in the above if you don't believe me. His idea of a "fact" is eerily remeniscent of Pastor Russell's concept of "fact", and "indisputable physical facts", and "truth".

Let me see now, has Josh McDowell started his own cult lately?

If you don't believe any of the above information stated as 'fact' you are free to do your own research.

Name calling is not the answer!

Mike says:

Mary in an image in making Mary divine and perfect then they must conclude this is exactly how they converged myth and fantasy to make Jesus divine and perfect a mere image of a man converged of many mythologies martyrs and Biblical characters to subbvert man with that image.

Could you be more specific? How does myth and fantasy make Jesus divine?

Jesus was divine long before the RCC came on the scene!

Mary, on the other hand, was as human as you and I. (I think)

"I and the Father are one." John 10:30

Bang

So it said many would be slain to worship that image and so it was with the Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust, Poland Massacre etc. Over thousands of wars and 50 Million murders slain to worship the image Rome created.

A multitude of deaths can also be associated with other religions - check out the Japanese alone.

In eras past the RCC was much more the unified centre of traditional Christianity. Today, although there are a heck of a lot of Catholics, Christianity has multiple off-shoots.
The RCC considers Christ to be God and Mary the one who accepted His will to bear Him. Mary is said to carry the divine, and also be with the divine, and as people believe her to be with Him they pray to (ask) her to speak with Jesus for them - it's a humble act - they think themselves unworthy to speak to God - and they know He hasn't abandoned His mother, but rather, shown us her gift - behold, your mother.

The wise men - from the east - who came to Jerusalem.
and 'entering the house' they found the child with Mary His mother

Buddhists and others, regardless of whether they come to Jerusalem also consent to carry the Spirit of God for their fellowman. In prayer I think they find themselves with God in their house, as mothers.

who are my mothers?

Bang

Mr Bean

So far it is1:0 for Josh McDowell. No one as yet has posted just one valid argument against his work.

For me this is a starting point to do some very serious research.
I think that everyone who is searching for the truth should start that way. It's the perfect starting point.

Just saw in TV a group of ghost hunters. They were filming ghosts in infra red light and they were investigating haunted homes, cemeteries.

IMHO there are many clouds on the Bible, religion, ghost, UFO and ET's.

But...if on the huge ocean appears a muddy trace of land, no one is questioning the land, because picture is not sharp. The fact is, the land is there and in right time picture will be crisp and clear.

WIW

Peace...

SixofNine

He starts off lying like a rug, and doesn't stop till he has run out of breath ? many pages later. Scum of the earth.

Here are some of the facts relevant to the resurrection: Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish prophet who claimed to be the Christ prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures, was arrested, was judged a political criminal, and was crucified.

Maybe, maybe not. Certainly not a verified "fact".

Three days after His death and burial, some women who went to His tomb found the body gone.

Fact? I think the only fact is that Josh Mcdowell wants to sell books to unsuspecting spook lovers.

In subsequent weeks, His disciples claimed that God had raised Him from the dead and that He appeared to them various times before ascending into heaven.

Fact? No, unsupported assertion.

To quote [a] King, etc, etc, etc.

Satanus

Mr Bean

Mcdowell has been debunked for a long time now. Christian researchers should have run across this.

Here are a couple of urls
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/apologetics.html#mcdowell http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/index.shtml

SS

FetterFree Annie

It seems the atheists on this board have a problem with Josh Mcdowell.

Okay!!

Heres some more information proving the resurrection really happened!

This time it is from Campus Crusade for Christ! Care to call them scumbags, as well?

Common assumptions about the resurrection...

People assume many things about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. After all, it happened many years ago. Historical evidence from that time period is scarce compared to modern history. Here are some of the common assumptions about the resurrection. You may have heard some or all of these arguments:

1. The resurrection of Jesus is not a historical fact but a myth "cooked up" by his followers.

2. Nothing which happened that long ago could be historically validated.

3. Scepticism of this event was as rampant in the First Century as it is today.

4. It is impossible for any man--including Jesus--to rise from the dead.

5. Jesus did not rise from the dead as the Bible claims. He is still in a grave somewhere.

In asserting that the resurrection is a hoax, sceptics must ignore and deny the most impressive body of historical evidence available for any single event of antiquity. While the meaning of the resurrection is a theological matter, the fact of the resurrection is an historical matter with a great deal of conclusive evidence.

Resurrection documented by early historians

Someone once said that "there is more historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ than for the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo." English scholar Brooke Foss Wescott declared that "there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ." Furthermore, not one shred of evidence exists which can disprove the resurrection. Here are some examples of well-known, respected First-Century writers who supported the resurrection. Their writings survive today, faithful to the originals, because large numbers of people painstakingly rewrote those books and letters word-for-word and shared them with others.

Josephus (c.37-110 AD)

The best-known Jewish historian of the First Century, Josephus wrote in Antiquities, "This man was the Christ...Pilate condemned him to the cross...he appeared to them alive on the third day." Even the most hostile scholars of today, who believe that the writings of Josephus have been altered to favor Christianity agree that he clearly referred to the resurrection of Christ.

Ignatius (c.50-115 AD)

The writer Ignatius wrote in the Epistle to Trallians, "He was crucified in reality, and not in appearance, not in imagination, not in deceit. He really died, and was buried, and rose from the dead."

Justin Martyr (c.100-165 AD)

Martyr repeatedly wrote about Jesus as a living person, and was eventually executed by the Romans for his belief. During Martyr's lifetime, the resurrection would have been recent history, and could have been easily discounted if there was little evidence for it.

Tertullian (c.160-220 AD)

Tertullian also referred to the resurrection of Christ. Although he lived another generation removed from the actual event, there was enough evidence to convince him of the authenticity of this event.

Resurrection predicted by Jesus Himself

Some people claim that the resurrection was a story created only after the death of Jesus. Yet Jesus often referred to the event while he was still alive and ministering throughout Judea and Samaria. Therefore, the resurrection was not an attempt after his death by his disciples to concoct a myth.

At the beginning of his ministry (John 2:19-21)

Jesus claims that when the temple is destroyed, he will raise it up again in three days. It is clear that the Jews thought Jesus was referring to the literal temple building, but John tells us that he was in fact referring to his physical body. Years later Jesus was accused of saying that he would destroy the temple and raise it again (Matthew 26:60-61; Mark 14:57-59). This claim was so well known that mockers repeated the charge as he hung on the cross (Matthew 27:40).

To those seeking a sign (Matthew 12:40)

Jesus compared the coming of his death and resurrection to the familiar story of Jonah. Three days and three nights. The common Jewish reckoning of time did not require three full days. Any part of the first and last day counted as a day.

At the transfiguration (Matthew 16:21)

Jesus began preparing the disciples for his coming suffering and death. The very concept of his death shook them to the core, and they refused to believe that he would soon die. Yet word of his coming resurrection would reach the Jewish leaders by the time of his death, causing them to request a Roman guard for the tomb.

While preaching about the Good Shepherd (John 10:17)

Here Jesus makes it clear that he will not only die, but take up life again afterwards. He also points out that he obediently chose to die; otherwise, no one would have had the power to kill him.

On Thursday of passion week (John 16:16-23)

Jesus says, "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." The first phrase refers to the interval before the crucifixion. Some people argue that the second "little while" refers to the second coming of Christ, but the language here best fits the resurrection. The passages that follow describe the pain and anguish the disciples will feel as Jesus is put to death on the cross, followed by their joy at his resurrection.

The evidence is clear that Jesus in fact died and did not merely faint. Crucifixion was a terrible physical ordeal. Even those who were occassionally removed from a cross after a short time still died from their injuries. The trial and death of Jesus received tremendous publicity. Large numbers of people were determined that Jesus not survive. A number of others attended to his body afterwards.

Mark's testimony (Mark 15:37)

"With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last."

Matthew's testimony (Matthew 27:50)

Luke's testimony (Luke 23:46)

Luke was a doctor, so he would have been especially alert to the issue of Christ's death.

Jesus' exclamation (Luke 23:46)

The strength of the cry indicates that Jesus did not die the ordinary death of those crucified, who suffered long periods of complete agony, exhaustion and then unconsciousness before dying.

Testimony of the soldiers (John 19:33)

Roman soldiers would break the legs of their victims to quicken the final stages of death. The full weight of the victim's body was supported by a block of wood under the feet, to which they were nailed. Breaking the legs would remove this support, thus speeding asphyxiation. Air could be drawn in, but could not be exhaled. The soldiers must have been quite certain that Jesus was dead to avoid this common practice. Still, they pierced his side with a sword. The bloody water which poured out is medical evidence of heart failure due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium

The cross designed for death

Crucifixion was a highly effective method of capital punishment. Victims of the cross did not escape with their lives. Starvation, thirst, asphyxia and vultures all contributed to death. The Jewish historian Josephus convinced Roman General Titus to remove three of his friends from their crosses in 66 AD. Although these men had been crucified only a short time, two of the three still died from the injuries they sustained in the process.

Jesus' burial removes any doubt that He was dead

According to Jewish custom, Jesus went through an elaborate embalming procedure (John 19:39-40). He was buried with 75-100 pounds of myrrh (a sticky drug) and aloes. This was a large amount, such as would be used for royal burials, but not especially unusual. The purpose was not to preserve the body, but to allow it to decompose as quickly as possible. The perfumes and spices controlled odors. Wrapped up in mummy-like fashion with strips of cloth, these solvents were applied over the entire body like glue as it was wrapped. If the cross did not kill him, He would have died of suffocation.

Roman Guard assigned to protect the tomb

The chief priests were extremely fearful of a resurrection rumor being started by Jesus' disciples. In response, they convinced Pontius Pilate to have the tomb of Jesus guarded under tight security (Matthew 27:63,65). This was a Roman Guard, usually made up of 16 members of the Roman Legion--the finest fighting force ever developed.

Impenetrable formation

The Roman guard normally operated by placing four men immediately in front of what they were to protect. The other 12 slept in watches in a semi-circle in front of these, with their heads pointing inward. To steal what they were protecting, thieves would first have had to walk over those asleep. By the time they got there, the thieves would have been surrounded by soldiers. Every four hours, another four men were awakened to begin their watch.

Guards were bribed afterwards (Matthew 28:11-15)

After the resurrection, the chief priests bribed these guards to change the story of what they had seen and deny the resurrection. A bribe would not have been necessary for members of a Temple guard, but was an effective way of controlling Roman soldiers.

Roman soldiers who let a prisoner escape would die

Normally, these soldiers would receive the death penalty for saying that they had fallen asleep on their watch. One way guards were put to death was to be burned alive in a fire made from their own garments. Certainly the entire unit would not have fallen asleep with that threat hanging over their heads. It was the fear of their punishment that drove them into hiding and to the high priest for assistance.

The Roman seal on the tomb was broken (Matthew 27:66)

The Roman seal was set on the stone by the guard as a symbol of the authority of the Roman Empire. After guards inpected the tomb and rolled the stone in place, a cord was stretched across the rock. This was fastened at either end with sealing compound, which was stamped with the official signet of the Roman governor. People feared the breaking of this seal, due to the immediate death sentence it brought on. Even the disciples hid in fear.

The tomb of Jesus was and is still empty. It's interesting to note that the disciples stayed in Jerusalem to preach the good news of the resurrection. They did not run away to other parts of the world. If what they were saying was false, these claims would have been quickly disproved in this city so hostile to Jesus. The resurrection could not have been supported for even a day in Jerusalem if the tomb had not been empty. Nevertheless, there is other historical evidence to support this remarkable event:

The angel's word (Matthew 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7)
The angel not only declared Jesus as having risen, but invited the women to come inside the tomb to see where his body had been.

Peter and John's word (Luke 24:12; John 20:1)
The women's word (Luke 24:22,23)
If the resurrection story had been fabricated, women would never have been described as the first to discover the empty tomb. According to Jewish principles of legal evidence, women were invalid witnesses. Their testimony was completely worthless. Yet women not only discovered the empty tomb, but first saw Jesus alive.

The soldiers' word to the Council (Matthew 28:11-15)
The priests offered to protect the guards from their superiors if they would spread the rumor about the stolen body.

Where is the body?
Had the enemies of Christ produced the dead body of Jesus, Christianity would have died immediately and permanently. They were unable to even produce a false body to put the story to rest.

Empty grave clothes (Matthew 20:5-7)
Jesus' grave clothes were left in the tomb like an empty cocoon. The first thing that Peter and John saw were empty grave clothes undisturbed in their position. This made an impact that caused these men to believe immediately in the resurrection, without any doubt whatsoever. An empty burial cocoon, perfectly molded to the shape of Jesus' body, was a tremendously powerful piece of evidence.

Who rolled away the stone?
On Sunday morning, the stone that covered the mouth of the tomb had been moved quite a distance from the entire sepulchre (Luke 24:2). This was no ordinary rock. It was a large circular stone, flat on the front and rear faces and perhaps a foot thick. After the body was laid in the tomb, the stone was rolled into place along a short grooved track where it would be difficult to move. So how did this huge stone with a Roman seal, guarded by a crack team of soldiers, get moved from the opening?

Too large for a few women to move
At an estimated weight of 1 to 2 tons, moving the stone was an impossible feat for the small group of women who first came to the tomb. A portion of the Bezae manuscripts in England's Cambridge Library include the statement that the stone in this case was so large that 20 men could not roll it away. Travelling to the site from Bethany, the women--unaware that a Roman guard had been posted--wondered who would move the stone for them.

Moved away from the tomb
If the stone were simply rolled to one side, the guards could be accused of sleeping at their post. However, this was not the case. The stone was moved so far from the tomb that Luke made a point of using a different Greek preposition, apo to describe the location of the stone. The word he used, Apokulio, means to roll something quite a distance from something else--not just to one side. John uses a different verb with a similar meaning, airo, which means to "pick something up and carry it away." Who could have moved such a heavy stone a great distance and not be noticed by the Roman guard?

Was it the earthquake?
If the earthquake Sunday morning was thought responsible, then the guards would not have been punished for a broken seal. Deserting their post would bring punishment for cowardice, yet that's what they did. They went into hiding after the event, indicating that something completely beyond any human experience had taken place during their watch.

Soldiers were not prosecuted
There had to be some undeniable evidence arguing that no human could position the great stone in the place where it was found. Therefore, the Jewish priests could not justifiably bring a charge against the guards'

Disciples never expected resurrection

The biggest sceptics of Jesus' resurrection were originally his own disciples. Most of them didn't believe the resurrection until they saw him alive. None of them expected Jesus to come back to life. Even when it was reported to them, they refused to believe.

Women's announcement was not believed (Matthew 28:1-10)
Women returning excitedly from the empty tomb were not immediately believed by disciples. This is not surprising given the culture of the time, but among the followers of Jesus women had a higher stature than they did in normal society.

Mary didn't recognize Jesus (Mark 16:9-11)
Mary Magdalene thought he was the gardener. The idea that Jesus had risen from the dead never even occurred to her, blocking her ability to recognize him right before her eyes.

Thomas refused to believe (John 20:26-28)
Thomas was extremely skeptical, refusing to believe until he saw and actually felt the scars with his own fingers.

Jesus' own brother was finally convinced (John 7:5;
1 Corinthians 15:7)
James, the half brother of Jesus, did not believe in the claims Jesus had made about himself until after the resurrection.

Large numbers of eyewitnesses

The most compelling evidence for the fact of the resurrection is quite simply the vast number of people who actually saw the living, breathing body of Jesus after his well-publicized death. They touched him. They ate with him. They travelled with him. There are so many witnesses that if you were to cross-examine each one for five minutes in a courtroom, you would need more than a week to interview all these eyewitnesses. They include:

Mary Magdalene (John 20:15-17; Mark 16:9-11)
Five other women (Matthew 28:9-10)
The apostle Peter (1 Corinthians 15:5)
Cleophas and companion (Luke 24:13-33; Mark 16:12-13
Two Christians travelling on the road to Emmaus.

Ten disciples in a house (John 20:19-25)
Eleven disciples including Thomas (John 20:26-29; Mark 16:14)
Thomas refused to believe until he saw the evidence himself and felt the scars with his own hands.

Seven disciples by the Sea of Galilee (John 21:1-2)
Five hundred Christians (1 Corinthians 15:6)
Paul was in effect telling people, "the witnesses to the resurrection are still alive. Why don't you ask them what happened?"

James, the half brother of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:7; John 7:5; Acts 1:14)
James had been an unbeliever until after the resurrection.

Eleven disciples on a mountain (Matthew 28:16-20)
The mountain where Jesus gave the Great Commission is near the Sea of Galilee.

The believers at the Ascension (Acts 1:3-11)
The apostle Stephen (Acts 7:55-56)
Stephen saw Jesus while being stoned to death for his faith.

Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8; 18:9; 22:17; 23:11; 27:23;
1 Corinthians 15:8, Galatians 1:12-17)
Saul was rendered blind by his experience for several days--a memorable physical consequence. Seeing Jesus changed him completely from the greatest persecutor of Christians to the most committed apostle. His conviction became so strong, he changed his name to Paul, and willingly suffered great pain, beatings, imprisonment and death because of his faith.

The apostle John (Revelation 1:12-20; 22:20)
John had been exiled to the Island of Patmos.

Who would die for a lie?

All but one of the eleven disciples died a martyr's death. Many, like Stephen and James, died horribly cruel deaths with great pain and suffering. The eleventh, John, was exiled to the island of Patmos for his faith. Thousands of others also suffered persecution and death. All would not have suffered like this for what they knew to be a hoax. How many people do you know who would die for a lie? Even in comparatively light modern day situations such as Watergate, people quickly fall away from the "official" story in the interest of self-preservation. It is inconceivable that all of these people stuck to a storyline that they knew was false. The resurrection of Jesus was a historical fact.

Campus Crusade for Christ, Canada

thinker

Interesting replies, everyone. I think I'll keep reading for awhile before I comment further....
thinker

ps. Annie, I'm not an atheist.

Valis

All would not have suffered like this for what they knew to be a hoax.

Tell that to the Branch Dividians,the followers of Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate members, Charlie Manson's victims, oh but wait....they're all dead aren't they? Just when you thought it was safe to be in a cult!

Sincerely,

District Overbeer

L_A_Big_Dawg

I have seen too many of these post that supposedly disprove the resurrection. Well, those that have honestly gone and looked at the facts have come away with the beleive, BASED ON THE FACTS that the resurrection of Jesus ACTUALLY happened.

The list is long, but it starts with Paul. Included in that list is Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, Frank Morrison, & Simon Greenleaf. That list also includes myself. I am not a learned scholar, just an average person of average intelligence, that looked at this Christianity thing with a jaded but open mind, and found that everything that I had been taught about Christianity was a LIE.

Instead of what the Org. said about Jesus and His resurrection, I discovered that Jesus claimed to be equal with God. He did this be forgiving sins, and by direct claim to that title. He also proved His divinity by raising Himself from the dead as He said He would.

I don't expect anyone to take my word for, as I said I am aveage, but if there are those that are intellectual "giants" and they accept the historical Jesus and HIs claim to Divinity as well as His resurrection, then why can't those that are not of the same intellectual status admit that there just might be something there?

Did the Resurrection really happen?

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