Did the Resurrection really happen?

by thinker 77 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Mr Bean
    Mr Bean

    Jan.

    With sadness I have to agree with you. Very nicely you put it here

    "Thomas proclaimed that he needed more than the claims of more or less hysterical believers to accept this extraordinary claim. He would, he proclaimed, believe if he received evidence. Would not any sane person have reacted in the same way? And indeed, in this story, Jesus accepts the challenge, and proves to Thomas's satisfaction that he is the resurrected Christ. Alas, here we find Jesus (John 20:29) ruining the whole store by making an outragously stupid conclusion: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." "In other words, the Jesus of John blessed blind superstitious faith and repudiated sound skepticism."

    In other words, Jesus has said: "Blessed naive ones because they will inherit ."

    I was always wondering if Jesus, God would say something silly like that. It looks to me that it is clearly a propaganda churches and authorities to never question of anything.

    What they are saying is: just trust us and you will be all right. Maybe even dead but... still all right. We need you live on our altar of sacrifice for your country, our God, our land, our (NOT YOURS) destiny or more importantly - we need more money and you should have the faith in God, in us and... give us our life and everything that belongs to you. Trust us and don't dare to question. We are God's appointed people, Pope, GB or other kind of cheaters and parasites.

    Peace...

  • RWC
    RWC

    Jan, Let me first say that your post was well written and far more thought profoking than the name calling that sometimes occurs here. I must however disagree with both your interpretation of John 20:29 and with the idea of faith in general.

    Jesus' statement was not an endorsement of blind superstition over sound skepticism. To say that you would have to have proof that Jesus believed that faith in him was blind supertistion which he clearly did not believe. The statement was directed to those throught he ages who would not have the benefit of seeing him in the flesh yet who would trust him for their salvation. It was an encouragement to those, not a criticism of Thomas.

    As for faith, whether you are religious or not you have faith in your everyday life. It takes faith that the pilot is trained and can fly the plane to get on one, it takes faith that the pills you take were properly made, are safe, properly prescribed and are needed to cure any ailment, it takes faith that the food you eat meets the safety standards of your country and is safe for consumption. In everything you do you are exhibitng faith that people have or will do what they say they have done or will do. You are demonstrating trust.

    You cannot divorce faith from religion just as you cannot do so in everyday life. But that doesn't mean that faith in a religion is by definition blind. As for Christianity, that type of blind faith is not necessary nor is it encouraged in most demoninations. Christianity is a religion that is based upon historical evidence, documented facts and secular confirmations of events. It encourages the growth of faith by reading the Bible, worshipping and praying.

    The best explanation of faith in the Bible is Hebrews 11 where Paul says that faith is a trust in what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This comes from hearing the message.

    It is no different than the faith exhibited in everyday life or in some aspects of science. For example, take the theory of evolution. Even a cursury study will reveal that it is based upon the idea that though it cannot be proven yet it will be in the future and even though we do not know what creature first lived or how the mutations occurred we are confident they did, even if we have to base the theory on unproven science and on a disbelieve in some of the science we believe in today. Believe in the theroy of evolution is faith at its finest, yet any one who touts its validity is not promoting the idea of gullability. That appears to be left to those who promote faith in God.

    God bless

  • JanH
    JanH

    RWC,

    Jesus' statement was not an endorsement of blind superstition over sound skepticism. To say that you would have to have proof that Jesus believed that faith in him was blind supertistion which he clearly did not believe. The statement was directed to those throught he ages who would not have the benefit of seeing him in the flesh yet who would trust him for their salvation. It was an encouragement to those, not a criticism of Thomas.

    It was at best a mild rebuke for Thomas. Christians have almost universally believed that Thomas' demand for hard evidence reflected something negative about his character. He is called "the doubter", and it is not intended as a compliment.

    Contrary to what you assert, John's Jesus did say that those who accepted the claims about his resurrection on hearsay were better than those who demanded evidence. That is there for all to see.

    It is important to analyze this as a literary piece. It was devised to discourage doubt and encourage faith without sufficient evidence. Now, "belief without sufficient evidence" is precisely the defintion of "blind faith" as I see it. Thus, Jesus encouraged blind faith. Whether Jesus believed in himself is a moot point.

    As for faith, whether you are religious or not you have faith in your everyday life. It takes faith that the pilot is trained and can fly the plane to get on one, it takes faith that the pills you take were properly made, are safe, properly prescribed and are needed to cure any ailment, it takes faith that the food you eat meets the safety standards of your country and is safe for consumption. In everything you do you are exhibitng faith that people have or will do what they say they have done or will do. You are demonstrating trust.

    This is merely a game with words. Yes, I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. This is based on personal experience of this having happened thousands of times, and pretty solid evidence that it has happened billions of times. The probability of it not happening tomorrow is so small I reject it as an irrelevance.

    All our "normal" beliefs are based on estimating probabilities. Some claims do not require strong evidence. If a friend tells us, say, he has met another mate at a specific place, and talked about so-and-so, this is the kind of information we accept. We have experienced that this friend is trustworthy, and there is really nothing spectacular about the story. To compare this to "faith" (in the religious sense) is strongly misleading.

    On the other hand, perhaps this same, reasonably trustworthy friend told you he had met Elvis. Now, since we know Elvis is dead (at least most of us do) this is a pretty extraordinary claim. As such, we would be unlikely to believe that our friend was telling the truth. Depending on our experience with him or her, we'd conclude there was a msitake, a joke, or even delusion behind this story. Why? Because we live by the rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    This is a skeptic's slogan, but it simply formulates what we all do in our daily lives. This is how we evaluate information into various degrees of probability, based on our previous experience. It has nothing to do with "faith."

    When it comes to religion, however, people seem to follow a totally different set of rules. The common sensical skepticism we all have, to a greater or lesser degree, goes out the window. Obviously, in religion some very strong social and psychological mechanisms makes us accept even the wildest claim on very thin evidence indeed. That is religious faith!

    You cannot divorce faith from religion just as you cannot do so in everyday life. But that doesn't mean that faith in a religion is by definition blind. As for Christianity, that type of blind faith is not necessary nor is it encouraged in most demoninations. Christianity is a religion that is based upon historical evidence, documented facts and secular confirmations of events. It encourages the growth of faith by reading the Bible, worshipping and praying.

    I agree that in theory, religious faith did need to be blind. In some cases, perhaps, it is not. But when we talk about the resurrection of Christ, which is an extraordinary claim par excellence, we are definately talking belief in an extraordinary, supernatural event, and the belief is based on evidence that is somewhere between flimsy and non-existent. We've had a number of threads on this subject on this board, this included, and anyone can see with their own eyes that there simply is no such thing as "historical evidence, documented facts and secular confirmations" of the resurrection. We have wildly superstitious, inconsistent writings that were produced decades after the alleged events by people who do not even claim to have seen it with their own eyes.

    Even commonplace claims would be very questionable in such circumstances, and when the claims are of an extraordinary nature, there is simply no basis whatsoeevr for taking them seriously.

    The best explanation of faith in the Bible is Hebrews 11 where Paul says that faith is a trust in what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This comes from hearing the message.

    Certainty based on hearsay. It is obvious that the "certainty" is created through emotion and social/psychological processes, and has nothing to do with a sober evaluation of evidence.

    It is no different than the faith exhibited in everyday life or in some aspects of science. For example, take the theory of evolution. Even a cursury study will reveal that it is based upon the idea that though it cannot be proven yet it will be in the future and even though we do not know what creature first lived or how the mutations occurred we are confident they did, even if we have to base the theory on unproven science and on a disbelieve in some of the science we believe in today. Believe in the theroy of evolution is faith at its finest, yet any one who touts its validity is not promoting the idea of gullability. That appears to be left to those who promote faith in God.

    This is totally untrue, and as an example of "faith" it backfires horribly. Evolution is based on an overwhelming amount of hard evidence. It is based on more than a century of corraborating evidence from anthropology, geology, biochemistry, genetics and a host of other sciences. You seem to base your beliefs on fundamentalist propaganda, and betray a total lack of knowledge of the subject matter. I encourage you to check out the facts for yourself before pursuing this line of thought further.

    The almost universal acceptance of evolution, to which science was initially skeptical (as it should be) was precisely because Darwin and others were able to put forth evidence, extraordinary evidence even. And today, we have had other sciences, genetics in particular, confirming evolution to such a degree that nobody aware of the evidence can sanely reject the fact of evolution.

    If you really want to debate evolution, I suggest you open a new thread, as it really has very little to do with the supernatural events described in the New Testament.

    - Jan

  • thinker
    thinker

    Faith in the Bible has had some very funny results over time. Take a look at the map below and the quoted explanation of it. This map of the earth was based on faith in the Bible. It has Jerusalem in the center (Eze. 5:5), Eden in the east (Gen. ?:?), Gog and Magog in the North (Rev.), six parts land and one part water (2 Esdras 6:42). Other maps can be shown which show the earth shaped like the Tabernacle (Heb. 9:1-3).

    Much of what christians today assume is "allegory" or "symbolic" was at one time taken as literal. Could the resurrection someday be thought of the same way?

    TITLE: The Psalter Map
    DATE: 1225-1250 A.D.

    The Psalter map displays world knowledge removed as far as possible from the comparative science of the classical (Greek) world, and as yet quite untouched by the new light of the later Middle Ages. Or, simply the world as viewed by the didactic theocracy of medieval Europe.

    While centered precisely on Jerusalem, Paradise, in the Far East, is conceived in a somewhat exceptional manner.

    The heads of Adam and Eve appear within the enclosure, which seems to be marked off with lofty and symmetrical mountains. The Tree of Temptation is roughly drawn between the two faces. (Bevan and Phillot, Medieval Geography, xlii, suggest the Arbre Sec, which they make identical with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; and Yule, Marco Polo, II.397, refers us to legendary language about the Dry Tree which would perhaps support such an identification; - 'in the midst of Paradise was a fountain, whence flowed four rivers, and over the fountain a great Tree bare of bark and leaves').

    The draftsman's excessive regard for a literal interpretation of the Old and New Testaments explains the orbo-centric position of Jerusalem. In fact much the same reason may be used to account for the Psalter's eastern orientation. So many biblical references and place-names within Palestine and adjacent Bible lands are given that this area occupies more than a third of Asia. The Ark of Noah appears very clearly on a mountain of Armenia, and a large fish swims in the middle of the Sea of Galilee, perhaps as a reminiscence of the New Testament history. The Barns of Joseph, close to Babylon and Egypt, show us that our artist has heard of the Pyramids. The most famous cities of the ancient world, and the most famous sites of the Bible, are nearly all represented; while the immense and symmetrical Jerusalem, in the very middle of the world, forms a perfect center to an exact circle.

    The Psalter and Ebstorf also have a curiously similar treatment of the Caspian Rampart (otherwise Alexander's Wall, the Hyrcanian Mountains, or Barrier of the Jews - some scholars believe that this feature is actually the reflection of a vague or confused reference to the Great Wall of China), shutting in the Gog-Magogs and other monsters of the North; but the Gates of Alexander are more clearly marked on the Psalter than anywhere else in this family of maps.

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    JanW and RWC:

    I read both of your post with great interest. Faith, to me, is a horse of many colors. I agree with Jan asserting that some religions have misused the "we need to have faith" line; however with regards to the doubting Thomas, I lean towards what RWC said:

    The statement was directed to those throught the ages who would not have the benefit of seeing him in the flesh yet who would trust him for their salvation. It was an encouragement to those, not a criticism of Thomas.
    It seems to me faith and belief are two different things. "Faith" is active, whereas "belief" is passive. Some people in "the old world" believed the world was round, not flat and that if you sailed westward you wouldn't fall off into an abyss. Others, like Columbus, took that belief further...they had faith to spend years getting financing, finding ships, crews etc. and actually set sail. I think there is a very REAL 'power' in faith, but the key is applying it to what is real (truth). In other words, faith is a motivator to take action on something that can't be seen, but nevertheless true, whereas belief is a benign cerebral function.
  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Also JanH:

    Evolution is based on an overwhelming amount of hard evidence. It is based on more than a century of corraborating evidence from anthropology, geology, biochemistry, genetics and a host of other sciences.

    According to the theory of evolution, all four-limbed animals - everything from human beings to dinosaurs - are descended from a single creature, the first to crawl from water on to land. And yet finding that vital bridge between fish and four legs has proven elusive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally discounting evolution, in fact I believe in it to a certain extent, only I also know "science" flip flops all the time, it's not the "KNOW ALL" some claim it to be.

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    If humans are going to evolve I hope we get less prone to sickness and live as long as a tree.

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    But according to Jehovah we could have everlasting life.

  • Grout
    Grout

    Double Edge:

    Science is not a body of knowledge. Science is the method of gathering and testing that knowledge.

    Faith is "I believe".

    Science is "I produced these test results in an experiment that was duplicated by other people with whom I have no connections. Here's how I did it. Try it for yourself."

    Totally different.

    Edited by - grout on 13 June 2002 15:51:3

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Grout:

    Science is not a body of knowledge. Science is the method of gathering and testing that knowledge
    I know that grout....that's why I wrote science in quotes. First you have a theory, then you go through methods to test that theory. My point was, science pronounced results are sometimes suspect because of faulty methods. Science can say we all evolved from a single cell 'creature', but the conclusion is a little premature when you have a missing "method" in your linkage.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit