by Lee Elder 57 Replies latest jw friends
Hmmm,
When extremists in the U.S. have blown up buildings etc., there is much discussion about the indirect culpability of the leaders of subversive groups who spoke of violence towards the Government as something that was almost inevitable, due to the grievances of many towards the Government etc.
Violence, or the hint of the "rightness" or inevitability of violence is NEVER excusable! Even by xJWs!
IW
"When extremists in the U.S. have blown up buildings etc., there is much discussion about the indirect culpability of the leaders of subversive groups who spoke of violence towards the Government as something that was almost inevitable, due to the grievances of many towards the Government etc.
Violence, or the hint of the "rightness" or inevitability of violence is NEVER excusable!"
Ah, you mean as Tallyman has got up in his gallery here:
< http://www.intrex.net/tallyman/WT_Evil.html
sKally
I do not advocate nor condone violence. I'm about as peaceful as they come. Let's assess probabilities:
Chance that some disturbed person has read this thread this afternoon and feels moved to violence: 0.0001%
Chance that someone in the WTS will listen to my warning: 0.10%
Chance that someone is going to eventually go ballistic if the WTS does not
get its act together: 100%
I'm not sure how a free society can address these kinds of legitimate concerns without some element of risk. I'll leave this one up to Simon or those reading the thread.
How saith you - keep the thread or delete it?
Lee Elder,
I have family, close family members attending the JW meetings. If some disgruntled xJW or the husband of a JW should bomb their hall causing them injury, claiming your post encouraged them, making them feel that this was the only way to get justice....
Sir, I would hire a lawyer and seek to hold you accountable!
This is not a game, violence is wrong and the suggestion that the Watchtower may deservedly be heading towards having violent acts perpetrated against them is irresponsible!!
IW
consider how many JW's and ex-jw's have committed suicide or family annihilation, any warnings are a little late for them...DO YA THINK!!! Does anyone really consider family annihilation NOT VIOLENY? HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO
Anyway, my point is, people commit these acts when they are desparate and in terrible trouble and think they have no place to go.
Well, they have a place to go. They have many places to go. And like the missionaries for thousands of years before us, we don't wait for them to commit some violent act, nor do we make them come crawling to us for help and at some horrible price.
JW's, ex-jw's and non-jw's have been working together for years, and our efforts are getting more results. If we don't hear of a suicide or a family annihilation for months at a time now, MAYBE--just MAYBE--our efforts are bearing fruit.
We can always hope.
thanks for Simon and Angharad for running this M.A.S.H unit, with its incoming wounded daily.
BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.
IW,
Are you isolated, mentally in a island? No punk intented, just to paint a clearer picture:
You have been on this board long eunough to be aware that several posters have insinuated that even themselves are wiiling to cause similar damages. LE is not the first to mention such a probability, and as he repeated he was advising for the benefit of those who may become target. Violence produce violence.
To stop worrying, just tell your "close relative" to stop going to KH and/or DO SOMETHING to stop WT selfdestructive regulations and actions. Unlees you agree with the way wt is handling the whole thing.
In that case be willing to reap the consecuenses.
BTw
jw are expecting persecution, let them have it.
They will feel good about "scriptures", profecy being fullfilled on them.
Your relatives are wiiling to die for the TRUTH, i mean the WT.
Lee,
I could not agree with you more! The lives that have been ruined, families seperated, people starting all over again at late stages of life, others who continue to live in the JW land and are miserable emotionally for doing so. There is a definite negative side to the religion, one that is very hard to shake off. The people who have joined together online and shared their stories and pain are too many. We have not even touched the many who do not have internet access.
My only fear is that there is no "upside" at all. A person does go over the edge and commits a crime perhaps killing active JW's. The very act will only make those in even more adamant that this is the "true" religion. The need to fulfill the prophecy of persucuttion is so intense that they look for enemies everywherenow.
In a recent discussion with my active JW mom, I told her how I felt of the hate that the org teaches. They use terms such as abhor, hate, snakes, etc when describing those who do not follow their line of thinking. They ridicule those who give to charities, volunteers, other church goers of another denomination. They long for and pray for the day of the big "A" so God can destroy others. If a person was to take all of the hate they are taught from their own religion and use it against them as you mentioned...they are at fault themselves.
Dung That was one of the most touching things I have read in a very long time.
wendy
Well, I say keep it.
I disagree, IW. Sometimes violence is necessary, as was demonstrated when this country decided to abolish slavery. Or, when a murderer needs to be put to death. However, I did not get the impression that Lee was in any way sponsoring some violent action. It was clear to me that he was only pointing out that similar violent acts could be perpetrated by angry people who feel justified in lashing out in a similar fashion as has been witnessed already in other like circumstances. Continued heavy-handed action on the part of the WTS could indeed trigger such events. It is a logical and appropriate warning.
Sean
IW wrote:
"This is not a game, violence is wrong and the suggestion that the
Watchtower may deservedly be heading towards having violent acts
perpetrated against them is irresponsible!!"
I don't believe that I ever stated anything remotely similiar to what you
have written in this sentence, rather I said that I do not condone nor
advocate violence. I never suggested that the Watchtower is
"deservedly" headed towards violent acts being perpetrated against
them. Those are your words!
I understand and share your concern - that is why I posted my remarks.
I know just how real the danger is. Bombs have already gone off in Kingdom
Halls, family members have already shown up at the Kingdom Hall with
guns and shot people! Pretending that the problem does not exist will
not decrease the probability that future acts of senseless violence will
not be carried out.
There are some things, however, that can be done:
1. Encourage the WTS to change its policies
2. Extricate yourself and your loved ones from what you perceive as
a dangerous situation.
3. Reach out, if possible, to those in pain who have exhausted
their coping resources.
Sticking one's head in the sand will accomplish nothing. Not
discussing the threat, in my opinion, probably slightly increases
the probability of tragedy. That is why I posted in the first
place. By the way, the probability that this kind of thing would
touch any of us personally is probably far less than our chances
of being struck by lightening. What we are talking about here is
for the greater good of the JW community (both current and
inactive/former members).
Best regards,
Lee
Violence, or the hint of the "rightness" or inevitability of violence is NEVER excusable! Even by xJWs!
IW,
I respectfully disagree. You're inserting the "rightness" of violence to lend emotional support to your argument.
Lee argued that violence was inevitable. He did NOT argue that it would ever be considered "right".
The hint of the rightness of violence directed against innocents is, IMHO, inexcusable. The warning of the inevitability of violence is not only excusable, but laudable.
Getting off the subject for a minute, I think Lee's warning will completely fall on deaf ears. These men are too used to a lifetime of playing fast and loose with the scriptures, the English language, and people's lives.
Hmmm
