Does the soul or spirit exist?

by JanH 37 Replies latest jw friends

  • JanH
    JanH

    Science deals with what can be observed, directly or indirectly. So in one sense, you could say that science is simply not providing any answers to the question about the existence of a soul or spirit component of a human being.

    That, of course, keeps science polite to religious ideas.

    What science knows about the human body and the evolution of humanity does have some consequences for a soul-belief, however. This question is more philosophical than really science, but the two are not separated, and they shouldn't be.

    First, the idea of a human spirit -- a ghost in the machine -- was developed when primitive people had an animistic view of life. Life was, they thought, a magic component that kept living beings alive. It was considered as real a thing as any other. Various religious people had different beliefs about how you could observe this spirit, and how it behaved.

    Religions also needed a belief in a spirit/soul to postulate life after death. The soul-belief has remained a common (but by no means universal) part of human religions all over the world. At this time people had no idea how the human body worked. They knew about various organs -- like the heart or kidneys -- but really didn't have a clue what they were for. As we can see in the Bible, they often postulated various mental/psychological/moral functions for these organs.

    Fast forward: We know how the body operates: we are essentially a machine. We also know that human thought is developed through electro-chemical processes in our brain, not very unlike a computer. We know basically how it works on a micro-level; the mystery that remains is to really understand how all these small thought processes build up a single self-aware consciousness. But we know that who "we" are -- our thoughts, feelings, memory -- are directly related to physical and chemical components in our brain. Sometimes disease or an accident damages small parts of the brain. People then have parts of their memory disappear, or being altered, or they lose motoric control over different parts of their body. We know how different chemical stimuli can create visions and change how the brain perceives reality. Many well-known and often-used substances can seriously change even a person's emotions.

    What room, here, for a non-body component called a "soul" or "spirit"? If our personality was in a mystical spirit, why does it change corresponding to a body change? When a part of the brain is damaged, how come the personality supposedly in this spirit changes too? When we die, parts of our brain usually collapses and takes its thought patterns with it. Eventually, so much of the brain is gone that we are proclaimed dead, and the rest of the body is buried or burned; considered useless. Since a small brain damage does small damage to the personality in the supposed "soul", how can anyone believe the same "soul" suddenly is alive and well, with all memory, feelings and personality traits intact, when the brain is totally destroyed? What transfers this memory or whatever from the brain stem to this mystical soul?

    In fact, the idea of a soul or spirit is ludicruous. To say that science has not disproved the idea for all intents and purposes is fooling oneself. In all other ways of life, the logical absurdities of postulating a "spirit being" would lead all sane people to reject it. We would assume that the idea was rejected. But out of respect (mistaken IMO) for religious emotions people still pretend that science has not disproved the idea of a spirit. For all intents and purposes, it has.

    Let me illustrate with an example: say I postulated an idea that cars really had a car-spirit. The reason a car stopped when the gan run out was not, I claimed, the gas per se, but that the car-spirit had been depleted. When the car ran, it was driven by the car-spirit force, not by any combustion engine, even though I acknowledged the existence of such an engine. Would anyone seriously think this even made sense? That I had explained anything? That this actually merited any serious considerations, given that nobody had ever disproved the "car-spirit"? Of course not.

    The existence of the human spirit has exactly as much merit as the car-spirit.

    - Jan

  • voltaire
    voltaire

    Well reasoned, but...bummer. Oh well, carpe diem.

  • joeshmoe
    joeshmoe

    Well, I'd have to say there's a wee bit more mystery to the interior workings and origins of humans than Fords and Chevys. And I'd say it's that lingering mystery that people continue to point to, if only subconsciously, to dismiss anything scientists say. Too bad. Wait until you know it all and you'll spend all your days waiting.

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Jan,

    Excellent points and rationale. It reminded me of what Carl Sagan wrote: if you tell me there is an invisible dragon in the garage that can't in any way be tested for, can't be quantified, can't leave any tracks, etc., the burden of proof is on you. And, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It is completely anachronistic and illogical to believe in the presence of a soul or spirit (or resurrection, imo).

    I am reading Clan of the Cave Bears and am so reminded of modern religious beliefs, especially JWs since I was one. It's time for humans to put away the beliefs of ancient superstitious people who didn't know any better. People (science, etc.) know better now.

    My 2 cents.

    Pat

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Hi Jan,

    "Does the soul or spirit exist?" No!!

    Does memory exist? Yes!!!

    IW

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Jan,

    : That, of course, keeps science polite to religious ideas.

    Of course, the reciprocal is NOT true!

    : We also know that human thought is developed through electro-chemical processes in our brain, not very unlike a computer.

    This is not a Universal constant, Jan. After all, it doesn't take into consideration the brain of yer average dub.

    : What transfers this memory or whatever from the brain stem to this mystical soul?

    It's "beamed up." Don't you believe anything you saw in "Star Trek?"

    If the God who fucked us all up because of His own insecurities, could take a perfectly nice body that was designed to last for a long, long time, and mess it up so it doesn't last for long at all, then couldn't that same God "beam up" our essence for further torture and misery?

    BTW, your analogy about cars and gas is totally bogus. Cars only run out of gas at the precise time you don't want them to run out of gas and when you need them to get you somewhere the most. They never run out of gas otherwise.

    Cars either run out of gas because 1) They're demonized, 2) They're communists, 3) They're part of the Illuminati Conspiracy, or 4) They actually have no gas left.

    Of course, any sensible person can see that option 4 is absolutely idiotic.

    Farkel

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    I found this link interesting: http://www.cfpf.org.uk

    A group of quantum physicists say they have mathematical proof that consciousness survives death.

    Robyn

  • Realist
    Realist

    @ Jan:

    exellent post! no further comments required!

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Well, Mr. I-think-I'll-just-shoot-to-hell-folks-reason-for-being, what part of us goes to heaven to be with Jesus then?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Per Robdar's link:

    THE EXPERIMENTAL PROOF OF SURVIVAL AFTER DEATH

    We have had the experimental proof of survival after death ever since Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments in the leading scientific journal of his day - The Quarterly Journal of Science" in 1874. These were repeatable experiments under laboratory conditions. International teams of scientists then repeated the experiments and obtained the same results. People who had once lived on earth came back and proved to these scientific teams that they had conquered death and were still very much alive. This is what Professor Charles Richet, the French Nobel Laureate for medical science said about the experiments:-

    "There is ample proof that experimental materialisations should take definite rank as a scientific fact."

    The purpose of this pamphlet is only to bring to peoples' attention these exciting discoveries in subatomic physics. My job is easy, all I have to do is just point to the books that have been published but suppressed. The main reason why this incredible scientific discovery did not cause a revolution at the beginning of this century is because these experiments lacked the backing of any detailed mathematical theory. This is what Sir Oliver Lodge said in 1929:-

    "We have to be guided by the facts; and if the facts seem incredible as the they do - we have first of all to assure ourselves that they are facts, and then conclude that there is a department of knowledge to which we have as yet not got the key."

    At the end of the century we now have the key, the missing mathematical theory to back up these revolutionary, scientific experiments.

    So you see Jan, you have fallen prey to scientific censorship, a grand conspiracy to make you think what you thought about peoples...uhm... thinkers.

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