Does the soul or spirit exist?

by JanH 37 Replies latest jw friends

Amazing

Hi JanH: The book, The Heart's Code" is an interesting treatment of science and what some consider a 'spirit' world ... the findings are based on thousands of double-blind studies ... and other related data.
The author gave an example of a young girl who received the heart of a murder victim ... she never knew the victim or had any knowledge of how she died ... after the transplant, she started having memories of the murder, usch that she gave police sufficient details so that the murderer was caught and prosecuted ... This is a documented case that is detailed in the book I mention.
The point the author was making was not to prove or disprove the existence of a 'soul' or 'spirit' but to show that science is finding that there is a connection between humans that transcends the pure physical state.
I don't have the book right now, but a library or book store may have it. I believe it was published in 1997 or there abouts. I have no specific opinion, but it is something interesting to ponder. Jim
PS: Sorry about the other post above ... I went in to make a couple of small edits, and some weird code got imbedded ... and then the whole thread was messed up ... nothing would work except my short note ... so I had to repost this.
Satanus

I'm grateful for many things modern science has done for me and for the world. On the other hand, most 'modern science' has taken place in the last 150 yrs or so. That's not a very long time, in the big picture of things. Given another 150 yrs, who knows what scientists will be able to tease out of the universe? The deeper they go into matter, the more space they find. I'm sure a few common conceptions that are now held by scientists will be changed or jettisoned.
SS
gsx1138

There is almost nothing unique about the Bible. Just about every story contained within its pages has been told before by earlier civilizations. By the way, nice posting JanH. I don't agree with it but your ideas are presented well. And what the hell is wrong with this font? Ahhh, that's better.
Cassiline

Amazing,
I found this link to the story you told from "The Hearts Code." Very interesting read.
http://www.geocities.com/starsuriel/heartscode/ transplants tab.
A psychiatrist told this story while in Houston, Texas in front of an international group of psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers:
An 8 year old girl received a heart from a 10 year old murder victim. The 8 year old had horrible dreams of a man that had murdered her donor. The police were called. She gave descriptions of the time, weapon, place, clothes, and what the little girl he killed had said to him - everything she said was true. The police, from a physical description, found the murderer and confirmed all the little girl had stated.

A forty-one-year-old male received a heart of a nineteen-year-old girl was killed when her car was struck by a train: He feels a new raw energy, surging with power. Dreams of a huge truck and/or driving a steam engine. His wife comments that he is like a 19 year-old kid again. He is sure that his donor was driving a big truck that hit a bigger truck.

A thirty-six-year-old female heart-lung recipient received heart and lung from a twenty-year old girl who was killed while running across the street to show her fianc a picture of her new wedding dress: She dreams of the girl who was killed, she was young, pretty and very happy. Has a new happiness and a strange kind of excitement and joy that cannot fully be explained. Sister remarks: She is so much happier now, she smiles and laughs more (she's always been a downer) She is lucky to have gotten a very warm heart.

Thirty-five-year-old female received a new heart from a twenty-four-year-old prostitute killed in a stabbing: Feels a complete change in sexual behavior and inherited her sexual drive. Husband: She uses words she has never used before, sex is just different but he's not complaining.

Fifty-two-year-old male heart recipient got the heart from a seventeen-year-old boy killed by a hit-and-run driver: Loved quiet classical music prior to transplantation, now loves to put on earphones and play loud rock n'roll music. I love my wife but I keep fantasizing about teenage girls. My daughter says I seem like 16 again. Daughter: He is a little embarrassing because of the music, mom says he is going through his second childhood.

Forty-seven-year-old female received a donor heart of a twenty-three-year-old gay man shot to death in a robbery and died from severe wounds to his back: She wonders how she views her husband now from a male or female perspective. Since the surgery she has had shooting pains in her back and guesses it is the surgery acting up. Husband: Asks about gay fantasies and has changed style of dressing to a more feminine one. She wakes up screaming with pain in her back.

Glenda and David had an argument and sat in silence just moments before he was killed in a car accident.. Years later she requested a meeting between her and the young man whose life had been saved by her husbands gift, his heart. The heart recipient and his mother were almost a 1/2 hour late for the meeting. Sometimes people change their minds about meeting. After standing, Glenda says, "No we have to wait. He's here in the hospital. I felt him come about 30 minutes ago. I felt my husbands presence. Please wait with me."

Glenda is a practicing family physician and well versed in bioscience, now, however, something that transcends science was tugging at her heart. "David's heart is here," she added. "I can't believe I'm saying that to you, but I feel it." At that moment the young man and his mother walked hurriedly to us.

"Sorry we're late," said the young man with a heavy Spanish accent. "We got here a half hour ago but we couldn't find the chapel." After introductions, usually shy Glenda blurted out, "This embarrasses me as much as it must embarrass you, but can I put my hand on your chest and feel his...I mean your heart?"

She placed her hands gently against his now unbuttoned naked chest. What happened next transcends the current view of the brain, body, heart and mind, but it has happened in various forms in the lives of countless others.

Glenda's hand trembled, tears rolled down her cheek. She closed her eyes and whispered, " I love you David. Everything is copacetic." She removed her hand and hugged the young man. All of us wiped tears from our eyes. They sat down in the chapel and held hands in silence. Speaking in her heavy Spanish accent, the young man's mothers told me. " My son uses that word "copacetic" all the time now. He never used it before he got his new heart, but after surgery, it was the first thing he said to me when he could talk. I didn't know what it means. It is not a word I know in Spanish.

Glenda overheard us, her eyes widened. "That was our signal that everything was OK. Over time we argued and made up, we would both say that everything was "copacetic".

The young man shared story after story of changes he experienced after the transplant.
"There is no such thing as a miracle which violates natural law.
There are only occurrences which violate our limited knowledge of natural law."
St. Augustine
Edited by - cassiline on 10 June 2002 1:6:11
Edited by - cassiline on 10 June 2002 1:8:16
Wendy

Stealing Jan's thread here for a sec
PAT!
I love that series. I have read it a few times myself. That Ayla(sp?) was one tough cookie wasn't she? The descriptive nature of how she survived hardship was astounding. I will make a point to read that entire series yet again...Thank you.
wendy
Ooops I forgot to hand Jan back his thread,handing it back now, too sleepy to comment on it now)
SixofNine

I'll bet the "hearts code" writers, are every bit as scholarly as the WT & Awake writers. In fact, upon close examination, I'll bet we'll find a certain similarity in their fact checking & intellectual honesty (or the lack thereof).
Siddhashunyata

Jan, would you carry your car/spirit analogy to include the Universe (what Is)as a whole? ie No universal Spirit.
Satanus

The lancet did a study of a few nde's. It's at http://www.thelancet.com/search/search.isa You can register, then do a search for
Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest .
That should bring up Volume 358, Number 9298 15 December 2001
Here is an excerpt from the article:
"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."
SS
Satanus

More excerpts describing emotional/belief changes after nde experience.
8-year follow-up included 23 patients with an NDE that had been affirmed at 2-year follow-up. 11 patients had died and one could not be interviewed. Patients could still recall their NDE almost exactly. Of the patients without an NDE at 2-year follow-up, 20 had died and four patients could not be interviewed (for reasons such as dementia and long stay in hospital), which left 15 patients without an NDE to take part in the third interview.
All patients, including those who did not have NDE, had gone through a positive change and were more self-assured, socially aware, and religious than before. Also, people who did not have NDE had become more emotionally affected, and in some, fear of death had decreased more than at 2-year follow-up. Their interest in spirituality had strongly decreased. Most patients who did not have NDE did not believe in a life after death at 2-year or 8-year follow-up (table 5). People with NDE had a much more complex coping process: they had become more emotionally vulnerable and empathic, and often there was evidence of increased intuitive feelings. Most of this group did not show any fear of death and strongly believed in an afterlife. Positive changes were more apparent at 8 years than at 2 years of follow-up.
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? 22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope. 29,30 Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. 31 NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation.
SS
LittleToe

Interesting essay, Jan, but I have to take issue with a couple of points. You make a statement that damage to the brain simultaneously damages the soul/spirit, yet provide no supporting evidence. Also, with regards to your car analogy - you've never seen Herbie? You're surely not going to tell me that I imagined that? I tell you, the TV never lies - that car had a soul!!!
Edited by - LittleToe on 10 June 2002 4:30:58

Does the soul or spirit exist?

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