Since these gifts are still in existence at the time of the New Testament's writing, could You Know tell us when they ceased to exist? There are still people who speak in tongues and interpret as well as prophesy today, although I'm sure not in Jws. Eph. 3:11, in addition to prophets, mentions evangelizers, pastors and teachers. Likewise, Rom. 12:6 mentions not only prophecy, but service, teaching, exhorting, contributing, helping, works of mercy. Have all these too, been relegated to oblivion? 1 Cor. 12:8-11 in addition to prophecy, tongues, and interpretations speaks of wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, powerful works, discernment of inspired utterances. These are all gifts from the Holy Spirit, are they not? Since they all come from God's Spirit, I would think that makes them a special means. And I think the Holy Spirit will decide when the gifts are no longer necessary and not when men so decide. (John 3:8) Since the W.T. wishes to curtail the works of the Holy Spirt, could it tell us what exactly the Holy Spirit is permitted to do today?
65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS
by You Know 52 Replies latest watchtower bible
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NeonMadman
Congratulations. You are the only one so far that even attempted an intelligent reply.
Why would you expect intelligent replies when you offer no intelligent arguments to reply to? Everything you have said in this thread (and most everywhere else) is mindless pro-Watchtower propaganda, based and centered upon the false dogma that the Watchtower is God's organization. Take away that underpinning, and everything you say collapses like a house of cards.
Anybody wanting to know what a twisted individual You Know is should check out this thread, where he shows himself for the truly wicked, hateful person he is:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=30668&site=3
Edited by - NeonMadman on 22 June 2002 15:27:56
Edited by - NeonMadman on 22 June 2002 15:28:51
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You Know
Hillary Step says:
Why should anyone take what you have to say seriously?
Why should anyone take what you have to say seriously?
Everything, and I mean everything that you proclaim in your opening post is your particular view of scripture and theology. Many would offer different interpretations and views of all the questions that you feel that you have attended to.
They are welcome to do so. I think the silence speaks for itself. By the way, I emailed the author of those questions and gave him a link to this forum, so I would especially welcome his comments.
You have not offered proof Robert, you have offered opinion. If you presented proof, there would be no denying the truth of your statements.
Men will always deny the truth. Those who are not guided by wicked reasonings and sheer faithlessness appreciate Scriptural reasoning. I have offered Scriptural proofs as the reason for my faith. The author of those questions presumably feels that the Bible is God's word, as do we, but that there were no Scriptural answers that Jehovah's Witnesses could offer. I have proven that our faith is supported by Scripture. Christians are under obligation to provide an answer to each one that asks, assuming the questioner is sincere. At the very least, in this case, I have proven that the questioner is in error and laboring under a good bit of ignorance.
Again you mention the presence of Christ in the last days. You have not answered previous thread on this matter satisfactorily as to the correct usage of the Koine Greek term 'parousia'. Your opinion of the usage of this word, differs from what is accepted by the mainstream of scholars in this regard.
Nonsense.
You have never even attempted, as far as I can recall, to present any serious proof that the last days spoken of in the Gospels were not in fact the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD.
Anyone who has ever read Christ's prophecy, and who was not intent on self deception, knows that Jesus foretold that the great tribulation would be a global catastrophe and not some localized event. In Luke the 21st chapter Jesus said that it would "come in upon the entire inhabited earth." If you imagine that that prophecy applies solely to the destruction of Jerusalm back in 70 C.E., it is you who must supply the proof that would persuade us from coming to the reasonable conclusion that the entire inhabited earth is more encompassing than tiny little Jerusalem. Of course, you can't. You can only deny the truth, nothing more. / You Know
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hillary_step
I asked YK :
Why should anyone take what you have to say seriously?
YK countered with withering insight :
Why should anyone take what you have to say seriously?
Robert, you miss the point completely ( as usual ). It is quite obvious that you have become a legend in your own mind as you seem incapable of seeing anything beyond the gleaming tip of your nostrils.
Let me explain. Whether I am taken seriously or not by any persons ( and I include yourself in this statement ) posting to this Board is an irrelevance to me, and nothing to do with to the point at issue. You are the one who set this thread in motion. You were the person who seemed to be clamoring to be taken seriously when you replied to Kenneson. I merely pointed out to you that the basic premise of your thread was just opinions and interpretations, no better, no worse tha many others expressed on the subject. As such without definate proof that what you post to this Board is undeniably correct, all your utterings are just that. You die, they die with you.
In short you asked to be taken seriously, I did not.
Best regards - HS
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gravedancer
Why do you even think YK is a JW and not some troll?
A true JW will follow the beliefs and not come to apostate web sites...
Edited by - gravedancer on 22 June 2002 16:59:29
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You Know
In short you asked to be taken seriously, I did not.
This is where the slithering weasel aspect enters in on your part. LOL You did in fact ask to be taken seriously. You asked me to take you seriously when you made a pretense of knowledge, particularly in regard to Christ's parousia and the destruction of Jerusalem, in order to call into question the credibility of our teaching. Now, though, when called upon to make proof of your own empty assertions, you claim you shouldn't be taken seriously. And, of course, I knew full well that you shouldn't be taken seriously, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. / You Know
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hillary_step
Robert wrote:
Anyone who has ever read Christ's prophecy, and who was not intent on self deception, knows that Jesus foretold that the great tribulation would be a global catastrophe and not some localized event. In Luke the 21st chapter Jesus said that it would "come in upon the entire inhabited earth
Here are a few samples, taken from the NWT where such phrases are used in a local framework. Check even a basic Hebrew Lexicon and your argument swiftly unravels.
5 Jehovah has broken the rod of the wicked ones, the staff of the ruling ones, 6 the one striking peoples in fury with a stroke incessantly, the one subduing nations in sheer anger with a persecution without restraint. 7 The whole earth has come to rest, has become free of disturbance. Psalm
The whole earth resting after a Jewish battle victory..lol
5 Jehovah has broken the rod of the wicked ones, the staff of the ruling ones, 6 the one striking peoples in fury with a stroke incessantly, the one subduing nations in sheer anger with a persecution without restraint. 7 The whole earth has come to rest, has become free of disturbance. Isaiah 14: 5,7
You must of course acknowledge that this had a fulfillment in its daylol
25 "Here I am against you, O ruinous mountain," is the utterance of Jehovah, "you ruiner of the whole earth; and I will stretch out my hand against you and roll you away from the crags and make you a burnt-out mountain." Jeremiah 51: 25
The whole earth being ruined by the Chaldeans.lol
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And they proceeded to answer the angel of Jehovah who was standing among the myrtle trees and to say: "We have walked about in the earth, and, look! the whole earth is sitting still and having no disturbance." Zechariah 1:10,11The whole earth without disturbance.lol
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Moreover, the danger exists not only that this occupation of ours will come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Ar'temis will be esteemed as nothing and even her magnificence which the whole [district of] Asia and the inhabited earth worships is about to be brought down to nothing. Acts 19:26The whole earth Asia Minorlol
Productive land." Heb., tevel'; Gr., oikoume'nes, "inhabited earth," the same word as in Mt 24:14; Lat., or'bis, "[terrestrial] circle."
Check this footnote in the NWT
Remember Joshuas name being feared throughout the whole earth?
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So faith follows the thing heard. In turn the thing heard is through the word about Christ. 18 Nevertheless I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, "into all the earth their sound went out, and to the extremities of the inhabited earth Romans 10:17,18Alluding to a thing being heard to the extremities of the inhabited earth a thousand years previously.lol
27 Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them named Ag'abus rose and proceeded to indicate through the spirit that a great famine was about to come upon the entire inhabited earth; which, for that matter, did take place in the time of Claudius. Acts 11:27,28A famine throughout the entire inhabited earth that affected Asia Minorlol
Do you recall Paul declaring that the Good News had been preached throughout out the whole earth! In the C1st.
What did he mean by whole earth?
Honestly Robert, you really are a Squonka sometimes.
HS
Robert, my aplogies - the forum code does not seem to work on these quotations for some reason - hope it is clear to you.
Edited by - hillary_step on 22 June 2002 17:27:30
Edited by - hillary_step on 22 June 2002 17:29:19
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Salud
You Know,
Remember also what Col. 1:23 states when Paul said "that good news which you heard, and which was preached in all creation under heaven", did he actually mean the entire inhabited earth as it was known back then? Well of course not, and the Society will back me up on this. Hence when Jesus was speaking of the good news being preached back then it was fulfilled with those words of Paul. They were preparing for the destruction of Jerusalem, nothing more, nothing less.
Also, like HS mentioned, there is much discussion now centering on the book of Revelation and how it was written well before the destruction of Jerusalem. You should read other material besides Society's publications. Why if you come to this board to post, you wouldn't be doing anything worse than just educating yourself with other material and references. What are you afraid of? Don't let knowledge scare you away.
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You Know
I will now show you from the NWT that this type of phrase is not to be taken as meaning a worldwide scope
So, now you are asking me to take you seriously? LOL
You must actually think Jehovah is an idiot don't you? As regards the numerous prophecies in Isaiah and Jeremiah, and elsewhere, you apparently imagine that God was just being grandiose when he spoke about Babylon's fall giving rest to all of the earth. For one thing, the Babylonian Empire was a global empire, to the extent that it was composed of 120 satrapies. So picturing the whole earth having rest when Babylon was over-thrown was appropiate. But, It is apparently beyond your comprehension that Jehovah intended the prophecy to have a much broader application that literally encompassed the entire earth, and so the prophecies actually await a grand fulfillment on a global scale. Actually, Revelation uses phraseology right out of the same chapter of Jeremiah you quoted, in reference to Babylon the Great, that has a kingdom over all the kings of the earth. That proves that those Hebrew prophecies have a much larger application which is why Jehovah used the terminology that he did.
Another aspect is in regard to the prophecy of the king of the north being one that didn't have a minor fulfillment, so it is a touchstone for how the other prophecies will yet unfold. The prophecy regarding Babylon coming from the north parallels the prophecy of the king of the north "going forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and to devote many to destrution," during the great tribulation, which as Daniel says will be a greater time of trouble since their came to be a nation until that time. That means that the tribulation will be greater than WWII, which for the most part was the only truely global war. But, for me to try and educate you on the intricacies of Bible prophecy would for certain be a violation of what is holy.
As far as the 1st century preaching work, and other events spoken of as happening in the entire inhabited earth, it simply means from the standpoint of the known world at that time, as far as they knew the world. For certain when that phrase was used it meant more than a mere city. So, to assert that Jesus' prophecy applied only to tiny little Judah, when he said the entire inhabited earth, is simply absurd. If Christ was merely talking about Jerusalem and Judah he wouldn't have made reference to the entire inhabited earth. When that expression was used it always meant an extented area, not some localized event. / You Know