Interesting quote: "taking the Bible as a whole". This is something the witnesses aren't very good at and it shows in their house-of-cards argumentation.
65 QUESTIONS---FIRST 10 ANSWERS
by You Know 52 Replies latest watchtower bible
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hillary_step
Robert,
Your ability to miss the point with such dedication is quite alarming at times.
I am not here to defend the Preterist viewpoint, which like your own opinions and interpretations are just that. They certainly make more sense of the situation than your own opinions, but I will not float my boat on either viewpoints. It is this that is the premise of all my posts on this subject.
You may be right, you may be wrong, no-one knows for sure, unless of course they are spoken to from above through the miracle of the Spirit, which of course takes us into mental health-care areas.
Best - HS
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Salud
You Know
What HS is simply asking is to objectively look at other viewpoints. Not only were many here like myself raised on the WT doctrine but we fervently taught it to others. Several years ago you could not tell me that there might even be the slightest possibility that there might be something different. I don't feel that way anymore.
I too have examined other doctrines and interpretations. I tend to lean toward the Preterist viewpoint for the fact it makes more sense and it is easier to explain the Bible. I am not saying this is the doctrine of choice as I am still learning, but that is what it's all about.
Be honest, how do you justify the 144K being a literel number when the equation used to get to that number in Rev. ch. 7 is symolic (12 symbolic tribes X 12,000 symbolic israelites) = 144,000 literal. Come on now. I know for a fact many JW's incl. elders have a hard time with this. Toward the end I personally never felt comfortable giving public talks on this subject esp. since I did not feel comfortable explaining it. I am not alone in this regard, many of your collegues feel the same way. Don't be surprised if later the Society changes this interpretation as well.
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JosephMalik
Where are the anointed ones You Know? I do not see any.
YK said: That's because you are blind. Jesus' anointed ones are still on the earth at the time that all nations are gathered. They are symbolized by those whom Jesus described as his brothers in the illustration.
You Know,
More Watchtower bull. Christ died for the whole world not just His followers. There is no reference to anointed in the text whatsoever. This is a Kingdom prophecy, part of a series of them going way back to the 24 th chapter that deal with all mankind. Have you never read:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
So everyone who ever lived is His brother. He has a special attachment for His dedicated disciples but this is not what the text is talking about. It simply deals with our humanity and what we are as human beings without regard to religious affiliation or doctrinal beliefs. This is true of everyone dedicated or not. The expression spiritual brothers DOES NOT appear in the text. You attempt to alter it again. You have no basis for such application. We are not talking about Armageddon here. We are talking about how our Lord goes about with the selection and resurrection into the Kingdom of all mankind. In other words, who gets in and who does not among all the Nations that ever existed. This is what Christ does as King in this Kingdom when He arrives.
Did you make up this alteration of the text yourself or did you let the Watchtower do it for you?
YK said: I haven't altered anything. What do you suppose I changed?
You restricted the text to dedicated (anointed) disciples but the scriptures are talking about the Nations gathered before Him and such dedicated disciples are not counted as of the Nations. They are counted as of the Faith, the body of Christ and not part of the world. But if they are of the Nations and of the world, where is this stated in scripture?
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Makes no difference if they still exist or have passed into history. All nations means exactly what it says, taking in all mankind from the very beginning of man until this time. After all this is the time for the resurrection and Nations with sheep are found everywhere in time, not just in our present time.
YK said: That's total nonsense. The nations that are brought to judgment are not resurrected. Nowhere does it say that. You are merely making that up. The nations that Jesus is talking about are those same nations that "beat themselves in lamentation" when they are judged adversely by Christ during his revelation. Those nations are judged by how they treat the brothers of Christ, whom, as Paul noted are ambassadors substituting for Christ.
You just read where it said that. We are now well past that point you are describing. Here is where you are trying to apply the text.
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Well we are well past that gathering of the elect in Matthew chapter 25. No longer do we see tribes mourn, but we see but all Nations gathered. We see who is being picked for the Kingdom from them ALL to join such elect already gathered. And this selection is made based upon how such individuals in all the Nations treated each other.
YK said: Nations and peoples that lived before Christ obviously had no possibility of doing anything, good or bad, to the brothers of Christ, and hence, since that is the case, the nations that existed before Christ have no basis for this sort of judgment.
They sure did according to our Lord and a lot of them from far away places long before Christ came. They all had such an opportunity since no brothers in Christ are involved. Will Abraham be in heaven? Then we are talking about men not even in the faith but selected non-the-less as shown by the verses in Matt. 25 that we are discussing.
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. [God Luke]
Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
And the fact that we go back in time for such judgment is a truth clearly established by our Lord and is beyond questioning:
Matthew 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
So history will be rolled back. All Nations are involved including such ancient ones. And there are more examples such as this.
:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
So you have no basis for restricting the texts when our Lord clearly taught this would be the case as shown here. The Watcthwer does not even know that the Kingdom is restricted to earth or how it will be filled with immortal human beings. They never have taught such good news to the world.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 23 June 2002 15:3:31
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plmkrzy
YK
I'm sorry for the formatting If it is still messed up after I hit reply.
Arguing over who is anointed and who is not or asking for proof has always been the silliest thing IMHO. Exactly what kind of proof would be acceptable and to whom or by whom would it have to be accepted? It's a nowhere argument. It can't possibly go anywhere it has nowhere to go.
I'm certainly not the first one to post something too long and I won't be the last. That being said, regardless of the fact that I am not a man and it is difficult for most men to acknowledge the female perspective I am posting anyway even if Im the only one who will read this after I hit the reply button.
"First century Christianity enjoyed certain gifts that were later done away with and are no longer part of modern Christianity. For example, the gift of prophecy is no longer a gift in operation."
"So, to make an exact across the board comparison with the restored form of Christianity today among Jehovahs Witnesses with its first century counterpart is not possible. Be that as it may,
the organizational structure of the primitive congregation set a pattern for today."
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Trying to follow Gods laws and being as much of a Christian in modern times is one thing, however, the governing body of elders, telling the world that they are the only direct link to what God wants from us, is a bit on the ridiculous side of things. It causes hundreds of thousands of people to turn away from and reject their own brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers and children based only on the perception of a dozen men in New York and what they chose to interpret as unchristian behavior.
If they were offering guidance and counsel based on insight, education and experience to members of the various congregations around the world (assuming they qualified) not only would that be a better service, it would be more Christian then "Ordering" all the congregations to listen to THEM and THEM only and not to attempt to learn from the examples and teachings that Jesus left for all of us without their interpretation. They have left no room for anyone to have, much less exercise, a conscience.
Were Korah and his band of marry men disfellowshiped by Moses? You know, the guy that was literally appointed by God? Or did Moses plead to God to have mercy on them for their behavior before God smoked 'm?
Moses delivered the laws to everyone and they knew what they were and had choices to behave or else but not at the convenience of Moses. When Moses became holier then thou, thou took care of him by not allowing him to enjoy the benefits of the Promised Land along with everyone else.
The governing body has been following more in the footsteps of Moses then in the footsteps of Christ. Moses had a real direct line to Jehovah. The GB only assume they do and they have put more laws on Christians today then there are in the entire Bible, this side of having to go out and dig a hole that meets exact specifications to bury your s**t in.
That law was obviously for a reason and the obvious reason was they did not have plumbing in those days. Nor did they have knowledge of germs. They didnt know what a germ was anymore then they would know what an airplane was. They had to be told (directed by more intelligence then they were capable of) how to behave in order to be clean in order to keep from becoming a nation of sick infected people.
Shouldnt we all have enough common sense to understand now in the 21 st century why many laws were put in place in biblical times, and why many of those laws did not give reasons for their existence? I would think so anyway. What good would it have been for them to be told of germs? Uhwhats a germ? But because there were guidelines given in the Bible for them to follow they were able to avoid many diseases that would have resulted in death many times that others succumbed by not paying attention and following directions.
Adam and Eve had a law. Dont eat that unless you want to die Know one knows what kind of tree that was and it is irrelevant. It was obviously not an apple tree.
Do people go around eating any kind of fruit off of any ol tree they see now a days? Hell no. It only takes one person to say to another "Don't eat that fruit its poison". And it won't be eaten, usually.
But thousands of years ago there were no doubt many who died from eating poisonous fruit. If two people cant follow one simple direction to stay away from one tree that God himself said not to eat from, then it was only inevitable what happened to the human race after that, and what would have happened to it if it were left to continue without some advice.
It was because of that advice given in the Bible, for those inclined to follow it, which changed their standard of living, and stopped them from continuing stupid practices like using animal dung as medicine. They didnt even know not to touch an infant after touching a dead body. They didnt know about the immune system and why they had to wait a specific number of days to circumcise a newborn. Doctors know why now because of modern science that tells them the same basic things many of the laws did in Biblical times but with no explanation as to why.
So, there is plenty of room to apply reason with the laws of then and now. However that hasnt been the case with the GB.
Plum
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Bang
Well Youknow, I got as far as the first sentence. - First century Christianity enjoyed certain gifts that were later done away with and are no longer part of modern Christianity. - sounding dodgy .
The second cleared it up. - For example, the gift of prophecy is no longer a gift in operation.
So not where you've been hanging out then Youknow.
Bang
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You Know
joe malik
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JosephMalik
More Watchtower bull. Christ died for the whole world not just His followers. There is no reference to anointed in the text whatsoever. This is a Kingdom prophecy, part of a series of them going way back to the 24 th chapter that deal with all mankind. Have you never read:
YK said: I didn't say Christ didn't die for all mankind. You are just making up another ficiton and a phoney strawman.
You Know,
No straw man here just truth You Know. This is clearly establishing the context for the text, background information for the setting involved. Once again nothing is said about anointed in the text, nor is anything said about spiritual brothers. You are the one that has provided no evidence whatever and have attempted to shift the focus away from such truth.
So everyone who ever lived is His brother.
YK said: That is a bald faced lie. Jesus said of the Jews in his day that they were from their father the Devil. Those who are sons of Jehovah are not brothers of those who have the Devil as their father. Jesus' brothers are those sons of God who share Christ's anointing. / You Know
So what? He said the same of Peter and is Peter His brother? Stupid Watchtower reasoning to say the least. Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
What you describe as specific context in some texts from which their is repentance does not alter the general context given in the text we are discussing here in Matt. 25. And the text does not accept everyone does it? Some are separated as Goats and rejected. So there, you have no basis for even saying such a thing. The Watchtower is stupid. Has no idea whatsoever as to what the scriptures teach, and has deluded millions with nothing more that evil teachings unfit for the faith. They do not even know when Jesus died or how long he was kept in Roman custody during Passover. They have never taught the Good News of the Kingdom as they claim and do not even know what it is. They have killed thousands with their evil doctrines and none of them has gone to heaven when they die as they claim. You all have blood on your hands, the blood of the innocent deluded by you and your organization.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 24 June 2002 12:8:32
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You Know
So what? He said the same of Peter and is Peter His brother?
LOL. Another bald-faced lie. What are you trying to pull here? Jesus didn't say that Peter was a son of the Devil. / You Know
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joenobody
You know,
Why not hop in the Chat Room... you are around right now, aren't you?