WholeWheat, there were many many JWs in times gone past who truly manifested a remarkable faith in God (most notably as a large group in Germany during the Nazi years). As you said these did not have WTS literature, or very little, yet they stood firm in the face of intense opposition and persecution. If nothing else they should be respected for their integrity to God (as they saw it). It is my belief that JWs who actually do personal Bible study and have a deep regard for the value of heartfelt prayer, can develop such a resilient faith, but I'm not so sure about those who simply go through the WTS rituals, however regular they may be. The key here is a real personal relationship with God.
Regarding interpretation of Bible prophecy, it is interesting to note that in chapter two of the 'Revelation Climax' book it reads under the title 'Interpreting the Scriptures':
'The mysteries locked up in the book of Revelation have for long baffled sincere students of the Bible. In God's due time, those secrets had to be unlocked, but how, when and to whom? Only God's spirit could make known the meaning as the appointed time drew near. (Revelation 1:3) Those sacred secrets would be revealed to God's zealous slaves on earth so that they would be strengthened to make known his judgments. (Compare Matthew 13:10, 11.) It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: "Do not interpretations belong to God?" (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety, showing how remarkably divine prophecy has been fulfilled in the world events of our catastrophic times.'Now the trouble here is that on the one hand the WTS is saying that God would reveal the sacred secrets (i.e. correct interpretation would be made), but on the other hand the WTS is saying it makes no claims to infallibility. Either God reveals, or he doesn't. His Spirit cannot lie can it, or get just some things right? It is interesting to note the reference to Joseph. Although Joseph said this, it is obvious that God revealed the whole interpretation of Pharaoh's dreams, and there were no mistakes even though Joseph himself was only human. Joseph correctly pointed to the source of interpretation, God. The paragraph above suggests to the reader that correct interpretation would be given in due time, and the inference of course is that this has been done via the WTS, but a 'get out' clause is included in case any of the interpretations are wrong. Even though this clause exists, which really contradicts the 'God will reveal' bit, JWs nonetheless are expected to accept the various interpretations in this book as true. Try disagreeing at a book study with an interpretation and you will know what I mean.
It is good to hear that the members of your congregation are loving individuals. Please accept that many XJWs do not hate the brothers and sisters (despite the sarcasm here at times - it is an outlet for those who have been silenced for years and years), but their protests are directed at the society. The society (as represented by the Governing Body) say they are 'God's channel' of communication, but seem reluctant to accept all the responsibility that such a grand position rightly would require. If one truly serves for the interests of God, then one should be more concerned about His reputation than the reputation of a religious organisation. I know that if you are a JW with some years of association you will be aware of Jeremiah's protestations and denunciations of the corrupt Jewish religious system of his day. Based on the way the society uses the term in our modern day, Jeremiah himself would have been an 'apostate' because he spoke out against the religious leaders of his religion.
Does being called an 'apostate' upset you?
by wholewheat 109 Replies latest jw friends
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NewWay
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Kjell Hedblom
WHOLEWHEAT!!
"Remember the brothers and sisters that have been in prisons foer 30,40 years in the past.They remained faithful to Jehovah,praying to Him daily,and yet never recived any of the Societys publications.Did they worship the organisation? I think not!"
Well ofcource they didnt.How could they be that having no books from the Organisation to influence them. But as soon as the got liberated from the prison and started to go to KH,THEN they started to worship the organisation,maybe without really understand it.
I really start wonder if you not yourself by being here and posting so often in different matters you yourself have started to have doubts about whats going on inside the JW??
Well memyself have Never heard anyone calling me an APOSTATE but if you like you can be the first one to do it.Just throw the "first stone at me" but I wont throw it back on you.
Hugs from Kjell H
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SYN
WholeWheat: You say you are loyal to Jehovah.
Why do you stay loyal to a "God" who wants to kill 99.9% of the Earth's population?
Simple question, really.
Also, try and voice a differing opinion in the Book Study or (gotta be REALLY brave for this one) at the Watchtower Study when you answer a question. Go on, try it and tell us what happens. The Brother on the podium will say he'll discuss it with you later, and you will be REPROVED. For what? For QUESTIONING the word of the Faithful and Discreet Slave, that's what.
Even though you cannot see the forest for the trees, you must at some point realize that you are being force-fed information and forced to believe that it is the perfect Truth when in fact you have no choice in the matter and the information is very often complete hokey-pokey.
Save yourself before it's too late for your mind, and you become your own prisoner.
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wholewheat
neyank,
You asked me if the guy who switches from McDonalds to Burger King is an apostate, and my reply to that is I would be more inclined to label him a 'junk food junkie'! On a serious note, I understand the point you are making, but I think Jan H. hit the nail on the head, an apostate is one that leaves or turns on his former religion. I will try to refrain from using that term and if I do use it, I am not using it to offend. I can type 'exJW'. I am not an 'apostate' because I was never a part of another religous organisation. The question I asked at the top of this thread was to find out if exJW's find being called an 'apostate' offensive, and there are enough people here that don't like being called such, so I will refrain from using it.
larc,
Unless the owner of this board betrays my anonymity, I can and will discuss with you and others the teachings of the Society. I am not here to defend the Society's teachings, though. I am here out of concern for my brothers and sisters who are truely wonderful people that have been hurt by the dateline show, but I also have tremendous concern for the victims of molestation by witnesses that are pedophiles. I am glad that you see that I am a reasonable person, which I can see that you are too!
NewWay,
You make a very valid point, I think that what you are describing is what the ex-JW community has called 'double speak'. The comment in the Revelation book that states:"Those sacred secrets would be revealed to God's zealous slaves on earth" would have better left omitted from the book, I am glad I wasn't the one who wrote that! I think that Rutherford has made those same claims in his books which are now out of print, so it appears to me that undoubtedly some of the 'more overly enthused' brothers had a hand in writing this book. But it doesn't distract me from the wonderful articles that have given me and others so much encouragement throughout the years. I feel that by far the 'good' far outweighs the 'bad' regarding the Society's publications, wouldn't you agree? It would be interesting to read some post on this board of individuals who personally know the members of the Governing Body. It really makes for a lousy discussion if we judge people without knowing them first hand. And besides, the GB are not running things at this time, so it is apparent that some significant changes are taking place.
Kjell Hedblom,
I don't have doubts regarding my faith in Jehovah or His people. Concern? Yes. Doubts? No. And as far as calling you an apostate, I do not throw stones and I will not call you that name.
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larc
WholeWheat, There already has been a book written about the GB, written by a member of the GB.
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SYN
Notice how WholeWheat neatly dodges my post! Have you been getting your "oats" lately, WholeWheat?
Edited to add: Sorry WholeWheat, you posted a millisecond after I started typing this.
Edited by - SYN on 30 June 2002 18:4:2
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wholewheat
SYN,
I was not aware that Jehovah wants to kill 99.9% of the Earth's population. I think that you can remember that the Bible clearly states that Jehovah "does not delight in death of anyone wicked", and neither do I, nor do many of my brothers and sisters.
With regards to voicing an opinion at a Watchtower study that is contrary to the Society's teachings, that would be counterproductive and would defeat the purpose of the Watchtower study, which is to encourage the brothers and sisters. It would make more sense to bring these questions up at the book study, and believe it or not, at the book study I attend, some very interesting topics have been discussed informally and was quite interesting. I am not force fed anything SYN, I like you, can make choices, and as I stated earlier, I choose to live as one of Jehovah's witnesses.
larc,
With regards to Ray Franz I would like to make this point. Ray did serve on the Governing Body, and as a corperate leader he was privy to confidential information that was proprietary in nature. He did betray this, and yet the Society never took legal action.
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Kjell Hedblom
WHOLEWHEAT!!
Thx, I respect you for that!!
Hugs from Kjell H
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SYN
I was not aware that Jehovah wants to kill 99.9% of the Earth's population.
Well I WAS! It was basically drilled into my head from an early age! You are disagreeing with one of the CORNERSTONE doctrines of Dubland here! Dangerous territory, matey!
I think that you can remember that the Bible clearly states that Jehovah "does not delight in death of anyone wicked", and neither do I, nor do many of my brothers and sisters.
Whether he delights in it or not is not going to change the fact that all these people are going to PEG!
Hitler may not have enjoyed (this is up for debate) killing all those people in Europe, but he stilled KILLED THEM. It is not the enjoyment I'm concerned about, it's the SHEER HUMANACIDE! (OK, that is a dodgy word. I need to use a Thesaurus or something)
With regards to voicing an opinion at a Watchtower study that is contrary to the Society's teachings, that would be counterproductive and would defeat the purpose of the Watchtower study, which is to encourage the brothers and sisters.
Ah, yes, to encourage! Unfortunately you have forgotten to mention the little fact that everything that the Society says in the Watchtower MUST be obeyed without question, on pain of disfellowshipping. "Encouragement"? More like "MIND CONTROL". Once again, you CANNOT QUESTION THE SOCIETY. You can't pussyfoot around this fact - it's a blatant violation of your rights as a thinking human being with a consciousness more advanced than that of an ant.
It would make more sense to bring these questions up at the book study, and believe it or not, at the book study I attend, some very interesting topics have been discussed informally and was quite interesting
I bet you never voiced a DISSENTING opinion, now did you? Because that would have been a Bad Thing (TM). How could you entertain such "Apostate" thoughts? Now, obey Mother.
I am not force fed anything SYN, I like you, can make choices, and as I stated earlier, I choose to live as one of Jehovah's witnesses.
No, the Governing Body choose how you live as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I sincerely hope you never need a blood transfusion. Or worse yet, that one of your helpless young children ever needs one, because they don't even HAVE a choice, and if you have made the wrong "choice", THEY will suffer innocently. GOOD GOD.
Think about it: Would you ever be able to forgive yourself if it turned out the Tower was a big morass of LIES and one of your children died because of their teachings?
Did you know that certain teachings have changed, and in their current state would have allowed many CHILDREN to live? Children who were HELPLESS with regards to free choice? How can you explain away the deaths of these innocent children? I hesitate to use the word MURDER, but unfortunately it is the only one that really fits the bill. COLD BLOODED murder is even better, in fact, when referring to the Governing Body and their little doctrines which have cost the lives of so many. Why, they are even promising a girl who is now dying that she'll get to be on the cover of an Awake magazine if she doesn't take blood. Do you think that's RIGHT? That she must die to be on a magazine (and a really bad magazine, at that?) Don't you think that's SICK? Do you have any humanity left in you at all?
Look, I'm not trying to degrade you, my venom is purely aimed at the Tower - but those who come here as envoys of it are naturally going to "get some" of my supposed "poison". I ask honest questions - and I respect the fact that you of all the Witnesses who come here answer them back (fairly) honestly yourself. Keep it up, my man.
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QUEENIE
HELL NO..PLEASE DO CALL ME AN APOSTATE...QUEENAPOSTATE ((((HUGS)))) TO ALL XJW APOSTATEs