Can 'truth' change?

by wholewheat 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Religionists always wind up hoisted on their own pattard in so many ways.

    Not just in prediction setting. I like an example from Adventism. The adventists believe in the "messages of the three angels". The second angel cried out for adventists to "leave Babylon" and form a seperate church, and this cry went forth in a particular speech delivered by an Adventist minister in 1842. Anyone who reads that speech (in original form) will immediately see that the speaker called adventists to" leave babylon" for a specific reason, that reason being that Babylon "spiritualized" the return of Christ, that they believed in an INVISIBLE return. Adventists at that time believed in a LITERAL return. Yet 4 years later they "spiritualized" the return themselves and declared Christ returned Invisibly in 1844. So they contradicted their own reason for forming their church in the first place.

    This is why old material is so revealing and cults dont like you inspecting their history. Anyone who reads Russell will see that he condemned Adventists for practises that, years later, he adopted himself. Religionist cult leaders always fall into these same traps

  • Incense_and_Peppermints
    Incense_and_Peppermints

    If 'truth' never changes, then how can something taught in science that is considered to be 'exact', later be corrected by 'conforming with fact or reality so as to bring into agreement'?

    science is an open system that is constantly under scrutiny, as opposed to religion which is a closed system, and those who criticize it are usually cast out. the scientific method invites and only succeeds through critical scrutinization. that's why things that seem correct at one time are found to be flawed as we add to our body of knowledge.

    one of the newtonian laws states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. such as a rocket taking off. or a bseball being hit. or a bullet coming out of a gun. - we consder it fact because we can measure it throughout the universe. it's not magic. and not something only a few can see. as opposed to elders ;who through edict give their version of 'the truth'. since they're the only ones who know the source, it's not transparent, therefore it is suspect...

  • CoonDawg
    CoonDawg

    1 a archaic : FIDELITY, CONSTANCY b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
    2 a (1) : the state of being the case : FACT (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : ACTUALITY (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics> c : the body of true statements and propositions
    3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : TRUE 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
    4 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD
    - in truth : in accordance with fact : ACTUALLY

    I think that whatever definition you want to pick...this is from Webster's ...would seem to put down the idea of truth changing. Truth in and of itself is supposed to be constant. Even the Dubs profess this to be so, they claim that it's only the finer procedural points upon which new light is constantly being shed.

    Anyhow, just some random thoughts...

    CoonDawg

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    It is not simply a matter of a failed date.

    A lot of other factors, such as "prefullfillments" are involved in Date setting for the Apocalypse. With Russell, as an example, His writings predicted that the Jews would return as a nation to Israel BEFORE the 1914 Armaggedon. These prefullfillments are important, because, when the prophet sees that the Israelites are still not anywhere near returning to Israel, and it is the year 1912, he starts to doubt his 1914 date being fullfilled. Then he starts to hedge on the 1914 prediction. Witnesses now, quote Russell statements from 1910 and 1912 denying his predicting the 1914 rapture. Or at least expressing flexibility.

    But what has caused this new flexibiilty? It is the warning lights flashing on his prefullfillments.

    The same happened in 1975.

    The Witnesses expected, and the magazines had declared repeatedly, that World religion would be devoured by the United Nations before Armaggedon arrived. Read any Watchtower from the early 70s and tell me this isnt so. When it got to January 1975 and there was no sign of this occuring, the society, justifiably, started to sweat on the overall 1975 prediction and started hedging their bets.Their explanation (proposed in January 1975) was that there was a time lag between the creation of Adam and Eve and we must wait for that time lag to expire. Well, so far, Adam has been alone 27 YEARS.... and still counting. But when is the last time the society mentioned this time lag? They do not, and hope that everyone forgets they said it. Reality has demonstrated that not only was their date invalid, but the entire structure of predicted events surrounding it was in error.

    Edited by - refiners fire on 30 June 2002 21:9:26

    Edited by - refiners fire on 30 June 2002 21:18:53

  • Solace
    Solace

    If the light were in fact getting brighter, the truth would become clearer and more apparent, not change.

    The W.T.S should say the light is changing color, not getting brighter.

    God cannot lie. Truth does not change. Its either true or false.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    What happened to Russells predicted "worldwide Socialist revolution"?

    That is a pretty major prefullfillment.

    It never occurred. I have no doubt Russell died in 1916 of pure "disappointment', totally discredited in his own mind.

  • COMF
    COMF

    Lawdy, what a dumbass you are, Buckwheat.

    Look, man. It's okay to believe utter foolishness. It's okay to adopt lies as your creed even knowing they are lies. Go ahead, man, wrap yourself up in the bullshit. You don't need our consent. You don't have to convince anybody. Just go ahead and throw your life away. It's okay!

    COMF

  • tdogg
    tdogg

    I think you scared him off Refiners. He obviously has a lot of Watchtowers to read before he can go to bat against you.

    Hillarious when these dubs come in here thinking they can defend their religion and find folks on this board whoare better versed in WT dogma. You may have got babi-tised Buckwheat, but you better get off that JW "milk" and into the "meat" as they used say. Then maybe you can converse with the heavys. OOOHH TAAYYY!!!

  • ItsJustlittleoldme
    ItsJustlittleoldme

    Howdy wholewheat,

    The argument that 'truth' never changes holds no water. According to Random House Webster's Dictionary, 'truth' is defined as follows,"conformity with fact or reality".

    Are you stating that the 'truth' that Jehovah spoke through his word, the bible, changes? Show me 1 example in the bible where Jehovah changed what he said he would do, and therefore didn't give absolute truth, and later had to correct himself.

    Also, science deals with hypothesis, etc.. Until something can be proven it cannot be called the 'truth' or an absolute (doctrine) in scientific terms.But once they can PROVE something, it is no longer open for debate, the 'truth' has been found.. For instance, 2 + 2 equals 4; that is simple fact, a TRUTH that cannot change!!!! Consider that a doctrine if you will!!! It cannot change!!!! If someone told you that 2+2 suddenly equaled 5, you would call them a liar! For you KNOW that it not correct, and you can PROVE it!!!

    Bringing that to a religious/spiritual connotation;

    You KNOW that there was a biblical FLOOD, and that NOAH and his family survived, along with the animals. You KNOW this to be TRUTH because it says so in the bible, and we accept the BIBLE as GOD'S INFALLABLE WORD!!! This fact cannot change unless you disbelieve the bible. This is a BIBLICAL TRUTH. And the reason we can call it a truth is because we believe the bible to be the inspired word of God, and god only speaks in TRUTH! If you suddenly believe that God does not speak in absolute TRUTH, or that the bible is not inspired by such ABSOLUTE TRUTH, then you cannot even be certain that there was a FLOOD, let alone the story of NOAH and the ark.

    So, can you tell me just one TRUTH (doctrine) that your organization holds that CANNOT change? I.E. If the organization changed it, you'd say, you are wrong, and that I am DA myself because you cannot be speaking for god, as that cannot change, I know that to be the truth.. ??? After all, they are representing God, and after 120 years or so, you'd think by now that they would have at least a few doctrines that they know to be absolute truth, and cannot change!

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Just lil....

    there are a couple of Biblical examples that Christian false Prophets like to refer to where God reverses the utterance of his prophet.

    one is the case of Jonah, who declared Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days time. God reversed this prediction, but then, the ENTIRE city of Ninevah repented before God. So maybe he was justified in being merciful.

    Another is the matter of the apostles, who misapprehened Jesus plans, however, from memory, nowhere in the Bible does it say that they publicly preached their mistaken beliefs. Dont quote me on the last one, I'd have to check to make sure....

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