Lorenz Reibling gives interview about real estate

by OrphanCrow 162 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow

    I concur with Vidiot. If you don't want to publish it on your own, forward all your research to VICE.com, this is right up their alley.

    Hmmm...I will keep that in mind. After I hire a bodyguard. ;)

    vidiot: Wait... research and advances in bloodless medical treatment and technology started as far back as the 1940s?
    Seriously?

    Seriously. In fact, long before the 1940s

    When I first started looking for the roots of bloodless surgery, it was very difficult to find any material at all. There was virtually nothing online and I eventually found out that the medical world outside of the WTS/JW connections referred to the bloodless procedures as "Autologous Blood Transfusion" technology. The term "bloodless surgery" was a term only associated with all the organizations and doctors that were in the back pocket of the WTS.

    Since that time 4 years ago when I first started looking into the history of bloodless surgery, historical information on the origins of "bloodless surgery" is readily available. The father of bloodless surgery is considered to be Adolf Lorenz.

    Adolf Lorenz is remembered for his work with bone deformities. As a young surgeon during the 1880s, he developed a severe allergic skin reaction to carbolic acid, a compound that was used extensively in operating rooms. Although the condition prevented him from performing traditional surgical operations, he continued in the medical profession as a "dry surgeon", treating patients without cutting into skin or tissue. Subsequently, he was given the nickname "The Bloodless Surgeon of Vienna". His techniques became known as bloodless surgery, reflecting his noninvasive techniques.

    In the early 1900s, Lorenz traveled to the States and introduced his methods of non-invasive manipulative massage to North America. His techniques were picked up and practiced by many of those who were following the doctrine of an alternative field of medical treatment - the chiropractors and the osteopaths. Both of these professions were intricately connected to the WTS of the time and some of the literature written by the chiropractors, linked to the WTS, deal with the early practice of "bloodless surgery".


    Before I discovered the above information, I read the book Blood: An Epic History of Medicine and Commerce by Douglas Starr, hoping to find something about bloodless surgery. But nowhere in his book does Mr. Starr mention bloodless surgery. So I corresponded with him and asked him why. His response was that there was no information available at the time he wrote the book in 2000. But he did say that he had been invited to speak at one of the Blood Management meetings shortly after the book was released.

    *hang on...I just lost most of this post....damn...gotta re-do some of it...

  • millie210
    millie210

    It doesnt sound crazy at all.

    Thinking only the elect of the elect of 8 million people will survivie a global war as long as they obey 7 American men in NYC is much crazier.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Jeezus.

    x

    It goes a long way towards explaining why a doctrinal policy that was always iffy to begin with (a dietary restriction, after all) has been so frigging hard to dislodge, yet there are so many near-loopholes in it (not to mention compelling and reasonable arguments against it).

    Cell savers, "fractions", Hemopure...

    ...they all - indirectly - contribute significantly to the WT Society's financial income (I'd hazard a guess that straight-up transfusions probably don't), whereas fully abandoning the blood prohibition would potentially result in a reduction of said income... especially now, when donations in the developed world are threatening to gradually dry up.

    I'd assumed they'd recently reiterated their stance to say "go f**k yourself" to their critics.

    This explanation, however, is far darker.

    x

    Hmm, something just occurred to me... they must have been able to keep Ray Franz out of the loop on this one; I don't think he even hinted at it in COC.

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow

    Those damn forum demons have been up to their tricks again...

    I had a lot of information that didn't post...picking up from after corresponding with Mr. Starr...

    I re-read Mr. Starr's book and, after putting together everything I had learned up to that point about blood and bloodless methods, I realized that Starr had given the information as to who and where the notions of blood management would have found fertile ground right around the time that the WTS banned blood transfusions. Keep in mind that 'blood management' uses micro sampling and methods to improve the clotting ability of blood.

    WW2 saw many advancements in how blood transfusions were administered and used. A Canadian doctor had developed the method of blood banking that would be used for Allied troops and, combined with Dr. Cohn's discovery on how to fractionate blood, it put the Allies at the head of the race to use blood to save lives.

    The rest of the world was trying to find a reliable donor source - the Russians experimented with cadaver blood and the Japanese were using horse blood in their medical experiments.

    In the meantime, the German medical doctors were experimenting with ways to stop bleeding. Avoiding the possibility of contaminating their 'pure Aryan blood lines', the German concentrated on developing formulas that would clot blood - they injected Russian soldiers with clotting formulas, shot them and then timed how long it took them to die. Germany lagged way behind in blood transfusion technology - when they did resort to using blood, they often didn't give enough.

    The roots of bloodless surgery found fertile ground in the philosophies and methods of the German doctors who supported the Nazi war machine.

    In fact, Dr. Felix Kersten, Heinrich Himmler's doctor, practiced the deep massage that was known as bloodless surgery to the chiropractors that he had learned his craft from. Dr. Felix Kersten has been advertised by the WTS as the 'hero of the JWs' during WW2.

    Where did the blood transfusion ban originate?

    From the Germans. It arose out of the German WW2 medical teams that were trying to find a way to keep the Aryan blood lines pure.

    And, yup...that sure sounds like the conspiracy theory to beat all conspiracy theories, doesn't it?
    Lol! Just throw the Nazi connection into anything and you will be sure to get labelled "crazy.

    *sorry, Millie...my editing put your comment out of place. Yes...it is pretty crazy...about as crazy as 8 million people listening to the WTS.

  • millie210
    millie210

    This just gets more incredible OrphanCrow...

    where was Dr Kersten lauded as hero of the JWs at? Is that in the JW publications anywhere?

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    In retrospect, maybe we shouldn't be too surprised.

    The WTS has owned stock in - and therefore, derived financial income from - Rand-Cam and Philip Morris, after all.

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    Vidiot: The WTS has owned stock in - and therefore, derived financial income from - Rand-Cam and Philip Morris, after all.

    Lol! How hard do you think you have to shake the Phillip Morris family tree before Anthony Morris falls out of it? I have never looked...but I have always been curious.

    millie; where was Dr Kersten lauded as hero of the JWs at? Is that in the JW publications anywhere?

    Yes, that is in WTS literature. I will find it...I think I need a bit of a break!

    Damn...I was just going to post Lorenz's video to show how the WTS is connected to JWs who profit from the relationship they have with the WTS...and here I go again, off and running around chasing squirrels! Lol!

    I shall return with the information you requested, Millie. Soon.



  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    OrphanCrow - "...here I go again...chasing squirrels..."

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow

    Lol! Vidiot - Yup...I am like the dog in your picture - I am always getting distracted by "squirrels"!

    But back to Millie's inquiry about Dr. Felix Kersten, the hero of the JWs during WW2 and the doctor who practiced "bloodless surgery" on Heinrich Himmler.

    James Penton, in his book Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich: Sectarian Politics Under Persecution, speaks about the relationship that Kersten had with the JWs, On pages 194/5, he says this:

    As Hoss noted, many Witness women were released to the farms around Ravensbruck. This allowed Felix Kersten, Heinrich Himmler’s personal masseur, to ask Himmler to assign several of them to his estate at Harzwalde, which was situated between the Ravensbruck and Buchenwald concentration camps. After learning of the terrible conditions in the camps, Kersten began to cooperate fully with his Witness employees. Not only did he influence Himmler to take a more benign attitude toward Jehovah’s Witnesses, which he did, but he, Kersten, also became involved in importing The Watchtower to Harzwalde and through it to Witness prisoners in Ravensbruck and Sachsenhausen. Kersten obtained permission from Himmler to take a young woman prisoner, Anni Gustavsson, from Germany to Sweden, where he had a second home. There she was free to associate with her Witness brethren and to obtain Watchtower publications. When Kersten travelled back to Germany after visiting Sweden, he would ask her if she wanted to send anything to Harzwalde in his suitcases, which she packed. He knew he would not be searched because of his relationship with Himmler eve though there were Nazis who wanted to take action against him. So Kersten became a major conduit for the importation of Watchtower magazines to Nazi concentration camps.

    One of the sources that Penton lists for this material is the 1974 Yearbook of the Jehovah's Witnesses - pages 196-9.

    I did some research on Dr. Kersten to try to confirm the 'smuggling story' that the WTS and Penton spoke about. The rest of this post is a copy and paste from a few years back, from material that I wrote at the time I was researching him.

    *********

    Kersten has been called many things. "The Devil’s Doctor" (a book by J.H. Waller); "The Man with the Miraculous Hands" (another book…can’t remember the author…); Savior of the Jews; Nazi collaborator; informant for Finland…..the list goes on. And on. In many of the other books that I was reading at the time and have read since, Kersten is often referenced as a source and/or influence on events during the Second World War.

    Some historians see Kersten as somewhat of a suspect source, while others view him as fairly credible (Peter Padfield - Himmler).

    And now, according to the Tower itself (and supported by historian Penton), Kersten was the savior of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Penton, in his notes, acknowledges Kersten as the source for the story about the Watchtower smuggling.

    So, I got my hands on a copy of Kersten’s Memoirs. And I read it. Twice. I didn’t find the story about the Watchtower smuggling. In fact, there was not one single reference to Jehovah’s Witnesses, International Bible Students, or any group of that kind in the Kersten’s Memoirs that I read.

    Something was up. I kept reading. And I found out that Kersten, or editors with Kersten’s permission/collaboration, published several copies of his memoirs. Kersten had produced, as a diary during his time spent as Himmler’s doctor during the Second World War, over 900 pages of hand written ‘manuscript’. Apparently, (bear with me here…this is from memory retrieval…) he first published one or two ‘memoirs in German(?) and then a copy in Swedish (?) Anyways, I believe there were up to 6 English editions published, from various places and years. So, overall, a person would have to compile a study of all of the publications together to get a more accurate picture of Kersten’s movements and apparent ‘observations’ during his war years.

    I believe that Kersten’s memoirs were strategically produced, depending on which ‘political positioning’ was most advantageous to him at the time. The immediate post-war era was one of ‘foot shuffling’ and ‘positioning’ for many of its participants and key players. Kersten, in particular, walked a lot of political tightropes during his wartime ‘career’, and that did not change in the post war years. He had been extensively investigated by the Allied countries, and, in the latter years of the war, had been influential in setting up potential post-war alliances for Himmler. At the same time, he negotiated the release of many of the Jewish camp prisoners and saved thousands of lives during the course of the war.

    However, it was critical, for Kersten, to find a ‘home country’ and a place of safety for himself and his family after the war, and it is apparent that the publications of his ‘diary/memoirs’, have been carefully ‘selected/edited’ in order to present certain alliances politically for himself and others, depending on the country and timing of publication. After all, he had over 900 pages to select from, and, with creative translation, his diary would prove to be a malleable material from which to work from.

    John H. Waller, in his book The Devil’s Doctor: Felix Kersten and the Secret Plot to Turn Himmler Against Hitler, published in 2002, gives more detail to the relationship that Kersten developed with the JW’s:

    from pg 24:

    Kersten claimed that his reaction was one of horror when he heard from Himmler that total destruction would be the fate of the Jews. He protested to the Reichsfuhrer, expressing shock at such "fearful cruelty" and the sinfulness of wanting "to destroy men simply because they were Jews." He asked "Hasn’t every man a right to live?" Himmler’s monologue in rebuttal – he often lapsed into lectures rather than be outscored in dialogue – sounded to Kersten as unreal as it was terrifying. Unfortunately, it was all too unreal. On November 16, 1941, Kersten noted in is diary that he had tried to reopen the conversation about the fate of European Jews, but Himmler, contrary to all his habits, only listened in silence. Kersten’s reactions were frank: "Since I labour in vain against the atrocious principles to which Himmler is committed...I will undertake as many interventions as possible to rescue Jews, hoping that they will be granted by Himmler."

    Kersten often invoked his license to bring up most any subject with Himmler – and always got away with it. In raising a lesser known but similarly cruel Nazi breach of human rights, the masseur discussed with Himmler the imprisonment of some eight thousand members of the Jehovah’s Witness sect, known in Germany as the Bibelfurscher, whose faith forbade their taking part in or even countenancing war. Nor could they approve joining the Nazi Party on the grounds that "man’s welfare comes from God, not man." To extend the Nazi salute to a megalomaniac like Hitler would be to blaspheme the true God.

    The plight of Jehovah’s Witnesses was close at hand to the Kersten family. The concentration camp of Ravensbruck where most of the Jehovah’s Witnesses were kept, was only ten miles or so from Kersten’s country home. In 1942, Kersten realized that because of the shortage of agricultural workers, many of the farmers in this area were permitted to draw on Ravenbruck’s inmates to work their fields. 5t helped the farmers, and it helped the government by sustaining agricultural production when labour was sort because of the military draft. But it also made life more bearable for the hapless Jehovah’s Witnesses, who were thus fed and housed relatively humanely by the farms to which they were paroled.

    It was when Kersten, with Himmler’s permission, took on parole workers from Ravensbruck that he was able to gain firsthand knowledge of the appalling conditions that existed at the camp. Ten women prisoners were initially assigned to Hartzwalde; soon male farm workers were also assigned. Hearing their tales of mistreatment and seeing the state they were in made clear that they had barely survived the starvation-level diet on which they had been forced to exist. They told stories of filth, malnutrition, unattended illness, and abuse by the guards. Kersten was "horrified to the point of being sick" upon hearing details about their treatment. It was then that he recorded in his diary that as a physician, his obligation was to heal; he thus vowed to try to do something about this sort of institutional mistreatment. He launched his campaign by informing Himmler about the inmates of concentration camps and how they were systematically tortured and killed.

    Himmler scoffed at Kersten, accusing him of falling for enemy propaganda. From then on, Kersten claimed to have used his growing influence on Himmler to free innocent people unjustly persecuted. As a beginning, he used Hartzewalde as a haven for a "great number" of Jehovah’s Witnesses, for whom he and his wife provided food, honourable work, and the shelter of a good home. Above all, the Kerstens treated them sympathetically. Thanks to Kersten’s influence on Himmler, Hartzewalde was given immunity from search and investigation from the Gestapo. But because Kersten was beyond the reach of the secret police, Gestapo chief Heinrich Muller had to satisfy himself with rumours and self-inspired fantasies. Muller convinced himself that Kersten was using Hartzewalde as a secret refuge for escaping English POWs and German resistance collaborators and Jews on the run sought by police. "Gestapo" Muller complained to Himmler, but the Reichsfuhrer insisted that the Gestapo must not harass the Kerstens in any way – an order honoured in the breach.

    Understandably, Kersten’s instincts and actions were more complex than performing humanitarian acts for their own sake. He was concerned with his and his family’s safety during the War and conscious of the need to prosper after its conclusion. Somehow he had to counteract what he feared might be a tendency on the part of the Allies – if they were destined to win the War - to link him to Himmler as an accessory to the Reichsfuhrer’s war crimes. While the War still raged and his very existence depended on pleasing Himmler, he needed at the same time to nurture contacts in western Europe on whom he could depend after the war.

    Sweden was of practical importance to him since he hoped to be granted Swish citizenship, enabling him to settle there to carry on his profession as a physical therapist free from the still-raw, roiling sentiments that would surely be rampant in a disillusioned, defeated, and economically depresses postwar Germany. But it would be inaccurate and unfair to imply that Kersten was not genuinely appalled by Nazi atrocities. Trapped as he was in Himmler’s domain, he would do his best to mitigate his master’s dreadful misdeeds and, within his limitations, succour victims of Nazi terror.

    Anyways.

    The copy of Kersten’s memoirs that I read was published in Great Britain, 1954(?), and, from what I have been able to gather, I think that the copy that would have the story of Kersten’s involvement with the JW’s, would be the one that was published, of course, in New York.

    Now...that was a pretty big squirrel, wasn't it? All skinned and ready for the soup pot.... :)

  • berrygerry
    berrygerry

    I have done the timeline work - I have been researching this subject heavily for the past 4 or 5 years - and I think that bloodless surgery did not arise from the JWs' demand for treatment, that demand only paved the way for existing interests to expand into what the blood management field is today. The blood ban was the vehicle that propelled the bloodless field of medicine - the JWs were the guinea pigs for the research required to develop technology that has been described as "The Golden Standard of Care" - a standard that blood management societies want to implement globally.

    Blood management societies that owe their existence to the JWs who founded the very first blood management society of its kind - the Society for the Advancement of Blood Management.

    This thread would make a great movie. "God's Guinea Pigs"

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