The Inherent Goodness Fallacy (page 4)

Siddhashunyata

It does not require a judgement of good or bad for one action to produce another. You hurt a child , you get hurt. Trying to stop a natural action is to work against nature and that too has its own effects thats why the WTBTS is experiencing the inevitible outcome of its actions . You sow you reap. There is no inconsistency in delighting in an outcome, as there is no inconsistency in delighting in a sunrise. This business of conceptualizing and passing judgements is not the same as observing "what is". Because the mind is not free of conditioning it cannot perceive "what is". Following a recipe of learned morality leads to judgements of good and evil and generates actions that also have inevitible outcomes, sometimes harmful. Two minds free of conditioning cannot work harm to one another. Watch the action of your own mind. The process is the same for all mankind. Note how many judgements of "good and bad" you are making. Ask yourself , what would the wolrd look like if I stopped deciding what is good or bad. See for yourself.

IslandWoman

You are not welcome to put your filth on other people...

Amen and amen!!

raven101

I have to agree with SaintSatan and Siddu's comments and must add that I think . . .

Sin is an assine concept, the very idea is horrendously stupid.

Religion has brought about a world full of self-flagellating freaks.

What's the deal anyway, is it fun to constantly tell yourself that at best you are constantly 'falling short of the mark', and that at worst you are vile beyond redemption?

That there's some omnipotent personality up on high whose ass you are not fit to wipe?

But whose ready to wipe your ass out (i.e. annihialate you) at any given moment or on some happy slaughter day in the future (armageddon)?

Someone who is doing you a favor by telling you you are a worthless turd?

That you tho having acted and reacted as a perfectly normal product of your environment are just WRONG and BAD?

Does that sound FUN?

Does that even make SENSE?

Thanks but no thanks, I'm done with that B.S.

Raven101

Edited by - raven101 on 14 July 2002 1:28:48

Jesus Christ

Look, this is a message directly from Jesus. You wanna argue the bible? I helped write it so I think I know what dad meant when he finished it. Apparently it wasn't clear enough for some of you so let me try to simplify it a bit.
Some people who follow dad and I seem to think that they area able to interpret our works to mean that everyone who doesn't live up to thier small and petty version of us is a horrible person. If we didn't want you to get drunk and have sex we wouldn't have made it so enjoyable.
Instead of whining about how people who enjoy the gifts we gave them are so horrible, might I suggest you try it out a bit to see how great these things we made are before I smite thee for being an ungreatful little bugger.
Just for the record, I don't know where this guy gets his stuff. In case you're just too drunk to tell, dad wrote the bible while drinking heavily one night.
Oh yeah, I know about that stash of magazines under your bed Comforter. Hmmmmm....... what would I do? Hope that no one sees them is a start (come on, dolphins!?!?) but other than that who cares? As long as it hurts no one do what makes you happy.

comforter

>>>>>The wicked ones have been perverts from the womb;
They have wandered about from the belly onward. - Psalm 58:3

What does this mean?<<<<<

The Bible writer is telling you that those who are now wicked have been perverted since the womb. Keep in mind that he is talking about his enemies, ones who have shown themselves hardened toward God. The principle applies to every opposer of God though. Ps 51:5 and Isaiah 48:8.

>>>>>So when you speak of 'bad', do you speak of 'wicked', or 'sinful', as you know Biblically speaking these definitions are not synonymous? Is every person inclined to be wicked, if so is this scripture insinuating some sort of genetic transfer of wickedness, or some blight of birth?<<<<<

The terms wicked and sinful may be synonymous in certain contexts. But when I speak of bad, I am referring to sin and trangressing God's covenant or his commands. I believe that we are all inclined to rebel against the covenant of the Lord. We receive this propensity from our parents. It is a genetic transfer, if you will.

>>>>>As I have asked before, give me some sensible definitions by which debate can take place. For example I gave you this statement to comment on and you remained conspicuously silent about it:

When the Jews were asked by God to slaughter the Caananites, man, women and child, were their actions 'good' actions or 'bad' ones. Your theology would surely dictate that they did a 'bad' act to achieve a good end? Of course many would argue with this and suggest that they did a 'bad' act for a 'bad' end, but what you need to do is to present evidence for your assertions.<<<<<

My theology does not require me to "dictate" that Israel committed a bad act to accomplish a bad or good end when they killed the people of Cannan. Each Israelite war must be judged on its own merit. Some of the battles were displeasing to God and unethical. Others were good actions taking place for noble reasons. You need to study each biblical war to find out which ones were good/good and which ones were bad/bad or bad/good or whatever.

Comfort

Jesus Christ

Look, I've said once, I'll say it a thousand times. We were drunk when we wrote that book. Quit reading more into it than is really there. If it says "Jeff Bivens is an ass because he he won't pay for his share of pizza so I will slap him around some" it doesn't mean that you should go kill everyone who doesn't put forth their part to support your idiotic cause. It means that I'm going to slap this guy around some because even though he ate his share of the pizza he's not paying for it.
You want direct commandment straight from Jesus that may be simple enough for you to understand? Go enjoy all the great things dad and I made for you (sex with consenting adults, nature, other people with different values and beliefs) and stop trying to impose your small and petty versions of us on other people. We enjoy having a good time and getting a good laugh as much, if not more, than you all do. Don't make dad smite you!!!!

comforter

Dear pseudo-christ

Comforter will not waste his time on a blasphemer of God and his Son. You think you funny but you best check yourself. That all I got say you.

Comfort

larc

Comforter, I think you were evasive on your answer to Hillary. I think he is referring to the total destruction of the Cannanites in the book of Joshua. Now, was this a bad act that Joshua and his soldiers performed. They destroyed every man, woman, child, and all domestic animals in hundreds of towns and villages. Do you think this was a good thing they did? Now, it seems to me that you have changed your original position, and are now saying that we are a mixture of good and bad. In Prov. 22:6, it says, "Train up a boy in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." Now, this would indicate that normal parenting and family life would produce good people. In this regard, my observations agree with Dakota Red's. The vast majority of people I have met, are generally good, and occasionaly make mistakes. Comforter, of the people you know the best, would you say that most of them are bad and/or evil as your essay asserts?

hillary_step

Comforter,

Read and learn - Psalm 58:3 from a variety of translations :

The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. KJV

The Godless are perverse from the womb they go astray from birth, they are falsifiers. Modern Language

These men are born sinners, lying from their earliest words - LB

The wicked go astray from the womb, the err from their birth, speaking lies. RSV

Since the womb they have gone astray, the wicked on the wrong path since their birth, with their unjust verdicts - JB

Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies - NIT

Now, get yourself a decent book on Hebrew Grammar so that you can find out what the psalmist truly meant. I would suggest for example 'Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar' - you will be rather surprised at what you find. It is quite clear that you have done very little, if any research on the thinking and beliefs of the pre-Christian Hebrew.

Larc is quite correct, you have evaded, or at least attempted to evade both the spirit and the letter of my question regarding the Jewish genocide that took place in Caanan. Was this a bad act that took place for a good end? If so how does this adjust a persons definition of what is 'bad' and what is 'good'?

Please also answer my questions regarding the classification of shunning, as to whether this painful procedure is in your definition a 'bad' act or a 'good' one.

Thank you - HS

comforter

larc

I thought I made my answer transparent. Joshua's act was a good thing. He was commanded by God to destroy the people of Canaan. And I have not changed my position. Go back to my original post and you will see I wrote that people are basically evil. They retain a semblance of God's image though. You must be interpreting my use of "basically" as "totally." But basically does not mean fully or totally. If I say that X is basically a good person. I do not mean that X is all good. Else X would not be human. And no matter what kinda parenting some kids get, they still turn out to be delinquents.

HS

Are you jerking Comforter's chain? How does anything that you placed on this board contradict what I said? I think you need to read Gesenius and the Bible.I stated that one can be born wicked or sinful. But that does not mean Ps 58:3 is saying people are literally practicers of evil from the womb. They are inclined toward bad though. They sin but do not commit sinful acts necessarily from birth. And you have no idea what I have researched. Why don't you make your point clear.

The Inherent Goodness Fallacy

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