by larc 25 Replies latest jw friends
Also, there does not appear to be any God directed organization from about 100 AD until 1879.Yes, that certainly appears to be the case.
Well done, You Know, you've risen to the occasion, once again.
I think we've had this discussion before, but I'll just point you to the best authority, Jesus' words in the Bible, OK?
"look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things" - Matthew 28:20 (NWT)
It doesn't come any plainer than that, does it?
Cheers, Ozzie
The question is: What actually constitutes "Jehovah's organization"? The Society uses the expression "God's visible organization" to denote the Watchtower Society. That is a somewhat artificial term because the true Christian congregation is a spiritual organization. Each member of it is a citizen of a heavenly grouping. Of course, while on the earth those heavenly citizens are visible to other humans, which I suppose makes them a visible organization, or association if you prefer that term rather than organization. The problem is that humans have a very limited ability to percieve heavenly realities. Moses for example was commended for seeing the "One who is invisible," but unquestionably the tendency is to focus on visible things. That's why Christians so easily fall into idolatry. But, when Jesus established his congregation of the firstborn he started a spiritual organization, the members of which are considered by God as his heavenly sons and daughters even while they are still in the flesh.
Basically though, Jesus' spiritual congregation was destined to go through a dispersion just like physical Israel, so that the earthly grouping of members of the heavenly Zion were scattered to the ends of the earth, so to speak, in that there was for many centuries no evidence that they even existed. Christ refers to gathering his chosen ones from the four corners of the earth. Now, if there is a gathering, or rather, a re-gathering, that means that there was a dispersion. The dispersion occured after the 1st century, and we are now living during the period of the re-gathering because the appointed times have arrived when Ephesians says that all things will be gathered together,again, in Christ. So, for the most part there are only two significant periods, the first century when the congregation was instituted, and the last period when it is re-constituted. In Scritpure though it flows seamlessly from beginning to end, in that the Christian prophets at times spoke to their 1st century audience as if they were speaking to those living during the parousia, because in reality they were. / You Know
You Know, you have stated
... while on the earth those heavenly citizens are visible to other humans, which ... makes them a visible organization, .... The problem is that humans have a very limited ability to percieve heavenly realities. ... That's why Christians so easily fall into idolatry.
From this statement, I perceive that if humans look to a visible organization for direction in spiritual truth instead of directly from their Heavenly Father, they are guilty of a form of idolatry. I would go along with that.
The Society uses the expression "God's visible organization" to denote the Watchtower Society. That is a somewhat artificial term because the true Christian congregation is a spiritual organization
Interesting!
the true Christian congregation is a spiritual organizationRubbish! Rubbish! Pure fantasy. NOWHERE does Jesus speak of such a thing, nor do the Pauline epistles.
Of course, you all miss the basic premise of YK's argument, one that is clearly stated by his spiritual predecessor :
To understand the events concerning the Lord's second presence from 1874 to 1914 requires one to be spiritually-minded; and the clergy are not spiritually-minded" - Joseph Rutherford, Creation (1927), p313.
Of course Mr Rutheford did not just mean that the 'clergy' were spiritually ignorant due to a lack of spiritual comprehension, he meant that anybody not viewing things in his way could be defined that as such.
I am so pleased for him that he was correct in his definition........
HS
Ahhhhh, Joe Ratherflawed! Yes, what a font of wisdom he was, wasn't he?
Millions now living will never die, wasn't it? And he said the clergy didn't know anything!!!!
ozzie
Hi Ozziepost:
I think we've had this discussion before, but I'll just point you to the best authority, Jesus' words in the Bible, OK?"look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things" - Matthew 28:20 (NWT)It doesn't come any plainer than that, does it?Cheers, Ozzie
Of course, you are absolutely right. But, behold! As you and many others can see, your astute observation went again, completely over the head of Mr. "AK" [All-Knowing]. Clearly Mr. AK is not a keen student of scripture. Did you notice when attempting to answer Larc's question above, he went off into the ridiculous "wheat/weed" routine, wts style, which by now has been rendered totally impotent by keen bible scholarship of Carl Olaf Jonnson and others, writings of former JWs that Mr. AK knows nothing about.
I'd like to make a comment or two on Matthew 28:20 mentioned above.
A careful review of Luke 19:11-27, the parable of the minas, shows exactly the same thing and reiterates your germaine point. Namely, a first century parousia of Jesus, culminating in 70 c.e.
For example, Luke 19:11 shows the purpose of the parable. To show the disciples that the Kingdom of God was NOT going to "display itself instantly". So Jesus gave this parable. Verses 12-15 shows Christ goes off to "secure kingly power" for himself. In the meantime, they were told "do business till I COME". (vs. 13) Later, "when he got back", or "returns," he makes his inspection of his disciples, the christian body of believers. He makes his inspection only "AFTER HAVING SECURED KINGLY POWER" for himself. Verse 27 explicitly shows the time-frame when the final inspection occurs. When he has all his "enemies who did not want him to become king" brought before him and "slaughtered". This is the Jewish nation in 70 c.e. A very important point. But validated by the contents of Matthew 24:2.
So, when the foretold "slaughter" occurs, yes, Jesus is king at this time. He is a reigning "king" when this "slaughter" occurs. He has been crowned "king" in the heavens by his heavenly father in the first century. And as "king", is allowed to "sit upon Jehovah's throne," again, in the first century. Which means, he is "enthroned" in the first century.
Psalms 55:19, in the NWT clearly shows it is impossible to sit upon a throne, and NOT BE ENTHRONED. But the WTS nor JWs cannot seem to understand this point. They act as though it is beyond them. Because if they admitted this, they would have to "trash" their entire religion. The date of 1914 becomes meaningless. A false doctrine, a "commandment of men" taught for 125 years. (Mark 7:7-9) But the point need not be beyond us. Jesus was "enthroned" in the first century as "king". And he "returned" in 70 c.e. to bring "vengeance" and "wrath" upon the city of Jerusalem. (Luke 21:23, 24)
Therefore based upon that understanding, Jesus could truthfully say: "I WILL BE WITH YOU for all the days until the conclusion of the system of things". That is the "conclusion" of the Jewish "system of things". (Matthew 28:20) He could say this, since he personally MONITORED the christian congregations of the first century right up to 70 c.e. and the destruction of the temple. (See Revelation chapters 2-3 and the "7 congregations").
Therefore, its appropriate to say Jesus was "enthroned" in the first century because as we know, Jesus was allowed to "sit upon Jehovah's throne" in the first century. (Rev. 3:21) And, it would be impossible for someone to sit upon a throne, without himself being "enthroned" as king. We know this became possible only because Jesus was "declared a Son" of God, in the permanent sense, at his resurrection from the dead. And when Jesus would be "declared a Son", God's Word shows he would at the same time, be "installed as king". (See Romans 1:4; Psalms 2:6,7)
And all of this happened in the first century, when he went back to heaven "to secure kingly power" for himself, just as the parable shows. (Luke 19:12) Afterwhich, Jesus could make his "return", just as he promised the disciple on the mount of olives. He would return, or come again, or have his second "parousia", when as he promised, at the very time "when by no means a stone [of this temple] would not be left upon a stone and not thrown down." There can be no doubt, this was a direct reference to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, which as we know, occurred later in 70 c.e. However, we note, this startling, sensational statement by Jesus was followed with the question: "When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your parousia [coming; return] and the conclusion of the system of things". The disciples would understand this as the conclusion of the Jewish system of things. When the temple would be destroyed. Sensational news to them. (Matthew 24:2,3)
So, we would be be wise to then, to the obvious, and connect the return, second parousia, or coming of Jesus with the destruction of the temple, when as Jesus said, "a stone would not be left upon a stone" -- the destruction of the temple in 70 c.e. This is the only way the first century disciples of Jesus could possibly understand the situation.
And of course, this conclusion makes perfect sense as it matches the foretold events of Luke 19:11-27 too. Namely, Jesus would, in 70 c.e., settle all accounts with his disciples and at the same time, bring vengeance upon a people "who did not want him to become king" by destroying their "temple" and entire religious "system of things". (Matthew 24:3; Luke 19:14, 27)
winsome
Edited by - winsome on 21 July 2002 12:2:30
Edited by - winsome on 21 July 2002 12:4:48
OZZIEPOST says:
Rubbish! Rubbish! Pure fantasy. NOWHERE does Jesus speak of such a thing, nor do the Pauline epistles.
Are you sure about that? Is it not rather the case that you don't know what you are talking about? Paul did in fact refer to Christains as being citizens of the Jerusalem above. Furthermore, at Ephesians 2:6 Paul referred to God making Christians alive though they were dead in their trespasses and "he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ." Paul was not talking about the resurrection as being the means of seating Christians in the heavenly places. Their anointing and being made part of the body of Christ was what seated them in the heavenly places even though physically they were still upon the earth.
As for Christ, he participated in the transfiguration, during which Moses and Elijah appeared in the vision. In Revelation the 11th chapter God's two earthly witnesses are pictured as doing the work of Moses and Elijah. Verse 4 says that these two witnesses "are symbolized by the two lampstands and two olive trees that are standing before the Lord of the earth." Those two witnesses are spoken of in Zechariah as also "standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth." So, even though the two witnesses are quite human, according to the vision of both Zechariah and Revelation, coupled with the transfiguration vision, God's two symbolic witnesses while on the earth have a standing in heaven next to Jesus Christ. Clearly, you are the one in error.
/ You Know
You Know, I know you are very busy in dealing with the multitude of comments. You are only one man against the multitude. With that being said, I will ask you once again, does the Society still teach that Jehovah has always had an organization of earth?
Well, You Know, I was somewhat puzzled by your post but wishing to dignify my response to you, and not simply give a "knee-jerk" reaction, I've re-read your above post.
Frankly I can't see what you're trying to say, so I point out things on the basis of what I think you're getting at, OK?
Is it not rather the case that you don't know what you are talking about?
(Smiling) That's a bit rich, I must say! How does anything you've posted answer the question asking you to justify you assertions re the congregation being an organisation. How do any of the texts you quoted give support to your claims? Christians being identified with the New Jersusalem does not state anything like what you claim. Neither does being "seated together in the heavenly places". As for the two lampstands reference, you have me completely in the dark, rather than as you assert " Clearly, you are the one in error." "If the cap fits", YK.
Cheers, Ozzie (reading the Bible in context class)
