A Quartet Of Questions For You Know...

by hillary_step 38 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  sunshineToo

  Thank you for your honest answer, You Know.....uhhh.....that is if you and H.S. don't mind me lurking around here. ;-)

  You Know, I want you to know that none of us ( at least I ) here do not have any personal negative feeling toward you. We all are upset with the WTS, and you are just here with a pro-WTS idea. I think that's why some of us ( even I ) might have given you some not-so-pleasant remarks in the past.

  I just got a call from my mom who is a reg. pioneer. She wants me to come back to the org. ( It's been only 20 days since I've DA'd myself. ) But I don't want to. I am tired of telling myside already. Like our Fred Hall, she thinks all this child abuse case including Bro.& Sis. Anderson, Bill Bowen and the victims is a lie: a scheme by apostates. In fact she thinks those people are Satan's pupets. ( sigh....) And at the same time she tells me to come back to "the God's organization." I don't know. When the org. itself calls those people "apostates" deserving judicial hearing and even getting DF'd, I don't think that org. has God's holyspirit. Because I know that God is merciful, loving and just. And I don't want to be a part of that org. But that was the choice given me by the elders at the last meeting. So I decided to DA myself because I knew that if I stay and keep that line of thought, I was sure I would get DF. So it was like I quit before they fired me. ;-)

  Oh, well, I'm talking too much here. Sorry about that, You Know. ;-) I hope to read your posts more in the future.

  Edited by - sunshineToo on 23 July 2002 16:12:40
• 

  Nanoprobe

  he allows bad shepherds to abuse and misguide his sheep in order for them to prove that even that sort of atrocity cannot destroy the love and faith of God's loyal ones

  Sorry, You Know, but if I believed that line of reasoning I could just be in any organization and excuse them their faults too.

  While it is possible to apply the warning regarding shepherds that feed themselves without fear to individual elders doesnt such an application become problematic when applied to the leadership?

  The 93 Watchtower states: Sheep must be protected from predators

  From the evidence I have read a Silentlambs, at this site, and from my own personal experience I feel that the organization (not just individual elders) have seriously failed in this regard.
• 

  You Know

  Okay, You Know, I read the chapter of Ezekiel and seemed to talk about the condition of Jewish people under the Pharissee before Jesus became their shepherd. As I understood the chapter the bad guys get the boot.

  No doubt it had a minor fulfillment when Jesus came to the Jewish nation, but consider the fact that both verse 20 and 22 says that God will judge his sheep. According to Christ's own parable of the sheep and the goats that judgment occurs when Christ arrives as king with all of his angels. That hasn't happened yet. Also, verse 25 says that God's judgment would cause "the injurious wild beast to cease out of the land." According to Peter and Jude animalistic men, shepherds even, would prey upon Jehovah's sheep during the last days. What is more, Jesus clearly said that things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness would remain in God's kingdom up until Jesus' angels physically removed them. So, in view of the lawlessness in the organization, in the form sexual predators, as well as spiritual predators, it is evident that the injurious wild beasts have not been made to cease from our spiritual land. That judgment is ahead of us.

  From this chapter how does having wicked shepherds that are in total control prove this is God's organization?

  It doesn't say they are in total control, nor does it say that all the shepherds are bad shepherds. The prophecy foretells that Jehovah will simply retire those who are bad shepherds over his people and that he will more directly take control over his flock.

  / You Know
• 

  Nanoprobe

  You Know, I can not comment on whether the bible prophecy as applied is correct or incorrect, I simply do not know. I gave up having a "sure understanding" on May 28

  If you have an article that you feel sums up this application of scripture I will be glad to read it. However, from my little research I do not see that the WTBS agrees with you.

  From a non-prophetic viewpoint: It seems to me that the law given to the nation of Israel was pro-family. It protected the family unit, it protected children from divorce, from abject poverty, from sexual abuse, you name it. It provided for a secure environment to grown up and become solid citizens and worshippers of God.

  However, the Watchtowers child protection policy has cased a rife in the fabric of society. How? 23,720 molesters on file and how many victims? 2-12 each maybe more? And what is the outcome for those children?

  Quote from Protect your Children Awake. , 1993

  Its impact can be devastating. Many survivors suffer profound feelings of worthlessness and low self-esteem. Experts in the field have listed some common aftereffects of incest on girls, such as running away, drug and alcohol abuse, depression, attempted suicide, delinquency, promiscuity, sleep disturbances, and learning problems. Long-range effects may include poor parenting skills, frigidity, distrust of men, marriage to a pedophile, lesbianism, prostitution, and child molestation itself.

  From the book of John: The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.

  Why must we conclude that God is the backer of this religion?
• 

  You Know

  You Know, I can not comment on whether the bible prophecy as applied is correct or incorrect, I simply do not know. I gave up having a "sure understanding" on May 28

  That's part of the dilemma facing apostates. You come to the conclsion that the Watchtower is not a reliable guide becuase they fall short in certai areas, but the areas they fall short in are addressed in Scripture, yet you can't understand them because the Watchtower hasn't explained them to you. You are in a real mess.

  If you have an article that you feel sums up this application of scripture I will be glad to read it. However, from my little research I do not see that the WTBS agrees with you.

  You must be new to this forum. I never quote Watchtower articles. In this instance there aren't any to quote from anyway. Like you say, the Watchtower applies all those judgments about the bad shepherds to the clergy. Yet, the prophecy clearly says that the shepherds are abusing Jehovah's sheep up until the judgment occurs. The Watchtower would never concede that the clergy have been given charge over God's sheep, so then it must apply to those who have been given that charge. The Scripture in James says very plainly that not many brothers should be teachers because they will receive a heavier judgment. How much plainer can it be? And, yet, when we read of Jehovah's judgment against those whom God judges to be bad shepherds we come to the absurd conclusion that it doesn't apply to us. Similarly, in Luke the 12th chapter Jesus says that he is going to punish the faithful slave, who fell down in certain aspects, with a few strokes because the principle applies that those who are put in charge have more than usual demanded of them. / You Know
• 

  Nanoprobe

  Am I new to the forum, well, yes. See the date and the number of posts.

  Am I an apostate? You called me one, however, I am not DF'd or DA'd and just recently inactive.

  So are you suggesting independent thought? Should we go beyond the things written? Can we do that without the FDS?
• 

  gypsywildone

  I simply can't understand how an organization claiming to be "god's clean organization, god's mouth piece, etc, (what else? help me out here guys), can have bad shepherds. How can anything "spirit directed" have bad shepherds?
• 

  Vivamus

  You Know, I am wondering. Do you believe what the GB says about them being anointed? And then, do you believe that what is said by them, trough the watchtower and other publications, is the word of the anointed - the word of God? Because you said before that you did not agree with the organization on all points. But according to them, that would mean apostasy, arrogance and so on. I am just wondering.

  Also, sorry, but I do not see the logic. If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able, he is not omnipotent. If he is able, but not willing, then he is malevolent. And if he should be both able and willing, then whence cometh evil? (Okay, that's not mine, but Epicures).

  And I would really like to say that I respect the way you defend your faith. Most JW would turn their backs, afraid for discussion.

  Viv.
• 

  Reborn2002

  YouKnow states regarding the WTBTS and the organization known as Jehovah's Witneses:

  I am not at all proud of the Watchtower right now. They are reaching an all time low as far as I am concerned.

  and regarding Mr. Anderson:

  I am sympathetic with him at the moment.

  Interesting admissions.

  Name-calling and disagreements in beliefs aside, I would like to pose a serious question of you Robert.

  While I do not personally believe the WTS is the direct channel that God has used, and you may... in your own personal viewpoint and interpretation, do you feel that your God Jehovah has withdrawn his favor from the organization you are a member of and believe is the modern-day Israel?

  If so, to what do you attribute this event?

  1. Is it a result of contradictions in doctrine as interpreted by the Society?
  2. Is it a result of children dying due to a vacillating blood doctrine?
  3. Is it due to the WTS protecting their image at all costs despite the suffering of a countless number of children at the hands of molestors who exploit Watchtower policy?

  Your answers please.

  You have already admitted your general disgust with the WTS and its course of action. Im sure the board would be interested in knowing WHY you are feeling this way.
• 

  bjc2012

  YK,

  I wrote you this back in May about the "Silentlambs" movement and the "harsh" treatment they were receiving at the hands of "abusive" WTS elders. I said to you:

  For example, the WTS' recent attempt to silence, the "silent lambs" whistle-blowers. More specifically the Barbara Andersen" case itself for example, and also the upcoming "Dateline" exposure of the WTS. Does not this recent much publicized situation irrefutably and indubitably demonstrate the GB/WTS' evil character and intent toward the defenseless "sickened sheep", when they heartlessly "shove" and "push" them "outside" of the JW Organization by way of "excommunication" or "disfellowshipment"? (Please compare Ezekiel 34:21 with Isaiah 66:5.)

  To which you replied:

  ...I didn't use the term wicked. That's your characterization. The 34th chapter of Ezekiel doesn't make that sort of judgment. It doesn't even condemn the bad shepherds to death. It merely points out that at some point Jehovah is going to relieve INCOMPETENT SHEPHERDS of their positions over his sheep and more directly, personally, take over shepherding, through his servant "David."

  These "bad" shepherds in the JW Organization, the real persecutors of "Silentlambs" found at WT Headquarters in NY, the G.B. & associates etc., as mentioned above are you still maintaining that they are merely "incompetent" shepherds or would you say they are wicked shepherds -- which?

  See "Jehovah Judges Abusive Elders" Thread-link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28050&site=3&page=2

  bjc

  Edited by - bjc2012 on 23 July 2002 17:38:10