The Rich Get Richer......

by VioletAnai 33 Replies latest jw friends

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  Analysis

  Derrick what is your theory a mass welfare state or the solution that brings on Peace and Security?

  Your mass welfare theory is very similar to the The Ludites". In that machines will replace the need for workers. They were wrong, the world found that cheaper clothing was beneficial for society. The future will prove you wrong also.

  Some Modern Ludites think that the future of the US is for the average person is to become a fast food worker, because all the manufacturing jobs are being exported. However, the productivity of US is far higher than anywhere else in the world. Even the Germans and Japanese have moved manufacturing plants to the US because of these productivity numbers.

  Is it possible for the US to fall behind the rest of the world in some key areas? Yes. Fall as bad as Rome into the Dark Ages? Again it is possible. But, where would the money come for a massive welfare state come from? If people don't have money they don't pay taxes.

  As far as Peace and Security and JWs viewpoint; first they say it may just be a call of Peace and Security and not real peace and prosperity. So they get it right no matter what happens.

  Edited by - Analysis on 25 July 2002 15:56:33
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  Derrick

  Your mass welfare theory is very similar to the The Ludites". In that machines will replace the need for workers. They were wrong, the world found that cheaper clothing was beneficial for society. The future will prove you wrong also.

  I seriously doubt The Ludites had nanotechnology in mind back then.

  Some Modern Ludites think that the future of the US is for the average person is to become a fast food worker, because all the manufacturing jobs are being exported.

  IMO that's just plain stupid. Fast food workers are paid below the poverty level in many parts of the U.S. Not a very good solution.

  However, the productivity of US is far higher than anywhere else in the world. Even the Germans and Japanese have moved manufacturing plants to the US because of these productivity numbers.

  Productivity could enter the stratosphere with robotics and nanotechnology. The corporations owning these non-human systems would pay taxes on behalf of all workers they displaced because the increased productivity would make them richer than ever.

  Is it possible for the US to fall behind the rest of the world in some key areas? Yes. Fall as bad as Rome into the Dark Ages? Again it is possible. But, where would the money come for a massive welfare state come from? If people don't have money they don't pay taxes.

  Fall behind in human productivity? Well, if few humans were producing goods and robots/nanobots were doing the production, the U.S. would produce more than any nation on Earth. The funds going into the Treasury from taxation of corporations using this non-human tech to mass produce goods and even many services would become a measure of the "stock dividends" paid to each U.S. citizen in my original example. In my example, people no longer are "taxpaying citizens" but become "shareholder citizens" who pay taxes on capital gains from their "dividends." (They no longer pay income taxes.) Like retirees who live off dividends from their stock, they have a voting share in the companies who account for mass production through non-human forms of labor.

  Derrick
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  crownboy

  My opinion? I think there are some aspects of the system that can help the poor more, and some that should be gotten rid of. Programs such as welfare should not be entilement(I know they're not technically, but they often function as if they are) programs, everyone cannot go out there and make tons of money but everyone can at least put in a 40 hour work week. Unless you're physically infirm (in which case I think the government has an obligation to help you), you should be helping yourself. In my own extended family, I know of members (JW's, nontheless) who are on welfare, living off of taxpayers when they could get off their lazy asses and earn a living. I also know of people in my congregation who are on welfare and who full time pioneer as a result . Hell, I even remember there being a part in meeting where a sister said she was able to pioneer because she was able to take advantage of gov't assistance programs, and she encouraged others to do the same! Situations like that just get on my nerves.

  However, I do think the government should provide universal health care and (quality) education for all its citizens. The poor people aren't going to get off of welfare if they can't read, and it's just inhumane to only provide good healthcare to the rich (or in my case, middle class parents with good union benefits ). The universal health thing would be easy if we tried, the education thing is admittedly a mess. I'm not a big fan of vouchers personally, but I'm also not a parent of a child who's enrolled in a terrible public school. We Americans like to malign and ridicule our other first world nation friends (sometimes fairly ), but virtually all those nations have better public educational systems than we do (and their colleges are affordable), so maybe we need to do what they do on the issue of education. Perhaps we should cut some of the corporate welfare programs to meet that end. I'm as opposed to giving lazy poor people my help as I am irresponsible corporations. If your company goes belly up, it will be replaced by another more efficent one, and the people who lost their jobs will get new ones (with the government helping them out while they get one, as opposed to taking my money and giving it to the corporation so that the CEO's can keep their ridiculous salaries, while the "little guys" get layed off anyway).

  As far as taxes are concerned, I agree with you guys partly. Living in NYC, my parents pay ridiculous federal, state and city taxes. I think if we clean up government and it is run more efficently, taxes could be cut by 10% across the board. As far as rich people paying too much taxes, that's baloney. The top 10% of Americans earn 90% of the nations wealth, so I'm pretty sure the top 50% are pretty close to earning 96% of the wealth, which would make their percentage of the tax burden fair. Besides, a $52,000 household is not in the same tax bracket as Bill Gates (though as I said, we're all being overtaxed right now anyway due to government inefficency). As far as third world countries are concerned, I think rich countries can help them by forgiving some of their debt. We first world nation guys can't seriously expect these countries to start building viable economies if they have their arms tied by the IMF till the next ice age. In exchange for debt forgiveness, those third world countries would have to clean up their corrupt governments, as the situation would only regress back if that isn't done.
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  Bendrr

  Puffs, I appreciated your story very much. I have a similar story to share.

  My dad (stepdad, but he's my dad regardless of that silly cult barrier). He never graduated high school, only made it as far as the tenth grade. And that was in Georgia of the 60's when students walked barefoot to school and one wouldn't think a farm tractor out of place in the dirt parking lot.

  With that 10th grade education, he busted his skinny ass to support our family, starting out with a micro-sized trailer (excuse me, manufactured home), a 1960's model Ford Falcon bought for $25, and his job as a welder at some crappy shop in the slums of nearby Perry. He moved on to the insurance industry, running the old "policy routes" common in the rural south where folks like us paid for their insurance by the week but not by the U. S. Postal Service. With his 10th grade education he used that crummy policy route to move up to General Agent of a company he started with another dub. He passed every single necessary certification and licensing test with flying colors. He had awards hanging on his office wall and probably still has them boxed up somewhere. Still doesn't have a high school diploma though, but I garantee you that he has a better work ethic than your average college graduate. And I respect him so much for that.

  I can say that I have at least some of his drive. I've had times when I slept in my car, slept in a utility room of a friend's apartment, and many times had no dinner to come home to. I've worked for what I have. Last year I did my taxes and saw that I paid $9,000 in Federal taxes alone (this year even more) and only got a refund of $1600 while I saw co-workers getting refunds of $3,000 or more. Their friends were coming by bragging about refunds of over $6,000 and how they got it by "renting a kid or two".

  THAT'S OUR MONEY!!!

  I have absolutely no sympathy left for "the poor". Not when I have to stand behind them in line at the convenience store while they blow $20 on that damn lottery. Not when I have to stand behind them in line at the grocery store while they fumble with their EBT card (welfare funded debit card) with groceries that they then load into a Cadillac. Nor when they come into my shop with said Cadillac and the state welfare agency pays for any necessary repairs. That's my damn money, not theirs. When they say welfare what they really mean is they want someone to earn it, bring it home, put it on the table, and feed them. Sorry, but that ain't in the Constitution.

  I say emphatically: Tax The Poor!

  Let the bottom 50% pay theirfair share! Give the big refunds to us middle-class working folks who have been supporting this country all these years. And I don't mean that $300/$600 check they sent out last year either. Let us keep more of our money to spend and invest and then you'll see a real boost to the economy that benefits everyone! Get rid of that criminal "Earned Income Tax Credit" because it is definitely not earned nor is it fair considering the actual taxes paid by the recipients.

  Ok that was a rant, but I had to get it off my chest. No apologies though. It had to be said, and needs to be repeated.

  Mike.
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  larc

  Bendrr, I am with you on this one. I was taught as a JW, not to go to college. Well, I did. I worked in a factory at night and went to school in the day time. I made it, and worked for it. I am sick of people saying, they can't do it, and it can't be done. For those who say that, I say, get off your lazy ass and do something with your life. I did it, and so can you, so stop making excuses.
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  teenyuck

  Amen.
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  Analysis

  Derrick

  Even if you are correct and only a "few humans were producing goods and robots/nanobots were doing the production, the U.S. would produce more than any nation on Earth."

  You forget that most of the Gross National Product of the US is in areas other then manufacturing. Even rich retired people want to travel, eat in nice restaurants, go to concerts movies and sports events, they will have insurance agents, bankers, lawyers, Doctors, Brokers and maybe attend some sort of higher learning institutions. And just like computers someone has to design and program the next generation robot/nanobots. So I still think most of the world's middle class will find work.

  To Crownboy

  I hope the government never gets to the point that they provide universal health care. The reason is that Health Care is not one size fits all. Not every treatment will work on every person. HMOs refuse certain treatments now. What would it be like if the Government could mandate what and who could be treated. Remember that the Clinton's Universal Health Plan would have made it illegal for you to directly pay a doctor for treatment that was not approved by the government. So you have a wife, husband, mother, father or child who needs some treatment that the Government decided would be a waste of taxpayer funds, what would you do?

  Edited by - Analysis on 26 July 2002 9:4:5
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  Bendrr

  I'm starting to wonder how many closet communists we actually have around here.

  Why not just have everything provided to us by the government free of charge? Why not, I mean really? We all need food, housing, education, health care, it should all be provided by the government.

  Fine. Let's have all that.

  That makes the government the number one supplier of goods and services. Ok actually it makes the government the only supplier of goods and services.

  And now we all live in government housing. Meaning you may not be able to continue living in that dream house you spent all that money on should the Federal Bureau of Housing assign you to different living quarters and some other family said dream house based on the paperwork you both filed. Now as far as that plum job, well sorry but the Federal Department of Labor may reassign you to a different task but don't worry since all jobs are now government jobs.

  And when you retire, you'll have your basic needs cared for. Food (government rations), a place to live (government retirement facility), health care (government doctors).

  Cradle-to-grave entitlements, just like the....oh hell you all know where I'm going here....SOVIET UNION!

  Crownboy, your assessment of the tax burden leaves me to think that you haven't seen the football since the kickoff. Hey, why don't you ask Bill Gates how much of a tax refund he got last year?

  Mike.

  p.s. Tax The Poor!
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  DakotaRed

  Bendrr, don't forget the Soviets failed in their grand experiment of their version of the welfare state. With the government supplying all things and no one really being required to work for it, everything collapsed within itself. They removed all the incentive to do a good job. Their workers were falling way behind in production of goods for the state and the quality was abysmal. But, why work and do a good job when you received nothing in return and couldn't lose your job?

  Their Socilaist experiment sounded good, much like Nirvana, but it has been proven it cannot work.

  The only way it continues to work here is that the Liberal Socialists amongst us favor certain ones and make sure they are well cared for to keep their power base in place. The rest of us work our tails off to support the favored ones of the Socilaists.

  Personally, I would like to see a flat tax instituted for all. Say, everyone pays a flat 10% of their income or less. From the poorest to the richest. Remove tax shelters and deductions and reduce the IRS manual to one page.

  Lew W

  Watchtower Decruit
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  crownboy

  Bendrr, I fail to see your point on the tax burden issue. If the top 50% control about 94% of the wealth, then it's only fair that they should pay that much of the taxes. I agree with you on the fact that everyone pays too much taxes, but even with less taxes, the tax burden should be weighted correctly. As far as being a Communist, no I'm not, but I'm also not an oligarchist. Asking the rich to pay their fair share in an economy which favours them greatly (they get more "welfare" than anyone else) is all I ask. Oh BTW, there are "cradle to grave" benefits in many Western European countries, and the human rights and economies are pretty solid (I'm not a "cradle to grave" benefits advocate), so the end result of such a system isn't always mass murder and a broken economy.

  Analysis, I guess you're right about some of the points you brought out. If I'm not mistaken though, some states have/are setting up independent medical reviewers who can overrule an HMO's decision if they deem that the patient really does need a treatment that the HMO originally ruled no on. If the government were to have a health system, I suppose they'd have to set up a national review board which would review patient appeals (they'd have to have the kind of independence the judicial system has, I guess). The point of the system would to ensure that every citizen has access to quality health care, and not just those with lots of money. In a capitalist system, there will always be poor people. While they shouldn't have the guaranteed right to vacation in the Pacific every year, (to paraphrase Al Gore )I think it's only fair that they shouldn't have to choose between their next meal and quality health care.